Drop Frame Time Code

Sorry if this is mis categorized. New here, but not to FCP.

I am delivering several spots of various length to a client in 1080i drop frame.
They want my HDCAM delivery to start picture on 01;00;30;00.

But that would mean the first spot would go out on ;02 instead of zero. According to DFTC.

SO I am actually beginning my picture at 01;00;29;28 instead of the exact time, because what I know about DFTC is that standard practice is to time your black to go out on ;00, or in the rare instance :02 if you first frame black is on the exact frame being dropped.

I wonder if anyone could confirm my logic on this.

TF

Start at 01:00:30;00. If it is a 30 second spot, black will start at 01:01:00;02. Last picture will be on 01:00:59;29. SOP here for NTSC countries is to begin on ;00 or ;02 depending on start time, and give exact duration, hence your black may start late.



www.strypesinpost.com

What he said. Start picture at 1:00:30;00. The first "drop frame" won't occur until the one minute mark...1:01:00;02.

That is a very odd start time, I must say...


www.shanerosseditor.com

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I think I replied directly to a user instead of the group that the first spot is actually a : 40 hence my first black is on an ;02 that is not dropped if I use their oddball start time of 01;00;30;00 Thanks for helping me think throug this anomaly. I am going to start this sequence on 29;28 to compensate. And deal with any consequences later

>hence my first black is on an ;02 that is not dropped

I don't understand your reasoning, and I've done spots for networks and so has Shane. You ALWAYS start on the stated frame and end late if you have to (eg. 00:01:00;02 duration for a 1 minute spot in DF), who cares when your black comes in as long as your picture starts correctly and your duration is correct.



www.strypesinpost.com

The dropped frames...that are only timecode numbers...don't occur until 1:01:00;02. I do not understand starting at 29;28...to compensate for what? The outpoint being at 1:01;10;02? Don't worry about that. The start time is KEY...essential. Start at the 1:00:30;00 mark, on the nose. Anything else is not meeting with the specs provided. I don't start my programs at 59:59:28. No way, the broadcasters would kick it back as unacceptable.

Start on time.


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Sorry to keep running the ship into the ground.

I get what you are saying.

I did all file delivery for air. The TC was not a factor in these.

This is their back up "airmaster" tape. So the spots are already all in their servers and will almost certainly never air from this tape.

Most clients ask picture to start at hour 1, regardless of TC. This client asks us to use DFTC and start at 1;00;30;00. If my first spot was a :30, id' be golden and wouldn't be asking crazy questions.

The first spot is a 40 second spot and rolls over the first DF minute, thus ending on 01;01;10;02 if I start exactly where requested. In this case, there is still 01;01;10;01 and 01;01;10;00 right before it.

So I entered the Twilight Zone, b/c the people who trained me taught me to always have last picture frame at ;29. That would mean that black would either be in on ;00 in most cases, or ;02 in a DF minute. Understood.

In this layback, I came to an anomaly on the very first spot. In order to finish on frame ;29, I had to pull 2 off the top black, resulting in a starting time of 01;00;29;28. Not what the client is asking for, but standard procedure for DF. The remainder for the sequence looks sound.


I have never run into this problem before, not to mention on the very first spot. Both senior editors here were at a loss, and don't know what trumps which. The start time? Or the normal procedure of extracting 2 in the black to end picture on ;29?

As of now I am rolling with exact start time.

I am going to speak to the client tomorrow directly.

All the best for not lashing out at my incomprehension.

Thanks everyone

I'd still start on the exact 1:00:30;00 frame. Your spot is still exactly 40:00... just the DFTC numbers are weird at that point. Ignore them...the spot must be exactly :40 and start at 1:00:30;00...that's all that you need to worry about. It's just odd to start when you do, that's what's causing the issue.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
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Always start on time and give exact duration. That's the golden rule. You will end 2 frames late because of DF timecode. That's fine.



www.strypesinpost.com

I know what you mean about NTSC. Sometimes on a de-caffeinated morning, I'll find a cut long by 2 frames, worry about it, then realize it's due to DF timecode.



www.strypesinpost.com

Thanks everyone. I want to start a Telethon to stamp out Drop Frame. We can end this horrible affliction in our lifetime.

Shane, Strypes, I have learned a lot today. Your advice was welcome, and correct.

Obliged
TF

Without DFTC we wouldn't be able to properly time TV shows. No, it needs to stay. You just need to get a better grasp of it. That comes with time.


www.shanerosseditor.com

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Yeah, I know. Except I already delivered these spots and they aired off the Apple Pro Res.
I feel like DF and interlacing will eventually phase out. Until then...

[Thanks everyone. I want to start a Telethon to stamp out Drop Frame. We can end this horrible affliction in our lifetime. ]

I like Drop Frame! I like how it confuses me, and keeps me on my toes.

You know what they used to say before HD-- "non-drop is non-pro."

- Loren

Today's FCP 7 keytip:
Temporarily mix down audio tracks with Command-Option - R !

Your Final Cut Studio KeyGuide? Power Pack
with FCP7 KeyGuide --
now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

As DF takes 1.001 seconds to display 1 second of real world visual content you US guys are either still in 2008 or if you have seen everything you are 2013 -- starting at the year zero.

Do TV characters take longer to age in the PAL world? Nothing baffles me more than DF time zone discrepancies.



www.strypesinpost.com

I have begun to call daylight savings time "Global Drop Frame". It's seemingly pointless but everything gets f'ed up if you don't do it

You misunderstand. Drop Frame time code isn't losing any TIME. Quite the opposite. It ensures that the tapes actually STAY in time. You see, video isn't straight 30fps over here. No, it is 29.97...slightly slower. So to compensate for the slower video, two frames of timecode are left out every minute, except for every 10th minute. Only the frames...not the time.

If you used non-drop frame timecode, by the time you got to hour two...a full hour of video playback, your timecode would be 3 seconds and 14 frames off. It would be SHORT by that much. 1:00:00;00 DF is 1:00:03:14 NDF.

Drop frame time code won't go away...because you need it to properly time shows. Unless NTSC video stops being 29.97 and get to 30fps...but I don't see that happening. People in PAL land have things way too easy...


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
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>People in PAL land have things way too easy...

Agreed. Broadcasting in NTSC is tricky business- line up a sequence of spots for broadcast, then you add a few cuts in, and you need to double check your start timecodes for each spot. There is a pattern to it, but if you get it wrong, everything down the line goes off.

Yes. It doesn't drop time. It's just a method of counting. They really should start using 30 instead of 29.97, but it's too hard to implement with all those cameras out there needing a firmware upgrade to conform to every new set of broadcast specs. Analog TVs will also run into problems playing back 30fps instead of 29.97. Also, shows and spots will need to be re-timed. It's a domino effect caused by a workaround created more than half a century ago.



www.strypesinpost.com

Shane,

that's what I meant

It's the discrepancy between TC and real world time for NTSC - not only for 29.97.
24 (23.98 rounded in NTSC TV) sucks as well - no idea why there is no DF as well.

Andreas

For people who have problems with DFTC, do you understand leap years? Does Feb 29 blow your mind every four years?

I think there is no DFTC@23.976 because DFTC@29.97 is really only needed for broadcast scenarios and no one is really planning on broadcasting 23.976 there's no real demand for it.
I for one would like to have it available, if only for using as a "but wait there's more" bit at the end of a lesson about timecode, when their eyes are already glazing over.
I seem to recall some app having a DF@23.976 sequence setting but can't remember where. It sure would be useful when cutting TV shows that are shot 23.976.

ak

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!