Editing a Feature with Subtitles

hi everyone.

good news:
i'm going to be cutting a feature that's shooting in Thailand, and i've been asked to come along for the ride.
shooting is on the Alexa, which i'm familiar with. it looks great, and the media is easy to work with.

interesting news:
ALL the dialogue is in Loatian!
so we have to subtitle our rushes, and edit with subtitles. phew, a lot of work.

not so good news:

basically, im getting very bad playback of HD media when there are a lot of subtitles
but i can get good playback with Standard Def media


i'm testing the process on an hours worth of rushes, with aprox 400 subtitles
MacPRo 3G Octocore w 16Gig RAM
Graphics Card: NVIDI GForce 8800 GT w VRAM 512MB

with Prores LT 1920x1080, im getting 50 subs in Preveiw (green) RT, then bad playback
with ProRes proxy 1920x1080, i get 60 subs in "Full" (grey) RT, then bad playback

with PAL (SD) LT i get 300 subs in Preview (green) RT, then the rest in "Unlimited" (orange) RT with good playback

i would prefer to have he quality of HD, but it might not be possible if i want to not be held up too much in the editing stage.

has anyone else had to deal with these sorts of issues?
how did you deal with them?

what would be the determining factors in the number of text overlays on 1920x1080 Prores media
CPU / GPU / Drives



thanks,
nick

Do you need the subtitles up at all times? Can you get away with using the "Play Base Layer" option so you can focus on cutting picture rather than rendering words on the screen? Or do the director and producers need the subtitles up as well?


www.derekmok.com

thanks, derek.

play base layer... wow, i'd forgotten about that.
interesting idea, and i see i can assign it a key command.

i'm sure after a while i'll know what is being said. i actually edit quite a bit with the sound turned off once i've moved past a first cut.

the downside would be i often work up simple comps while i edit.
if i render them, the render file should become the "base layer"? (he said hopefully)

hmmm... i just tried it and it didn't work? got it ticked in the RT menu, but un-rendered titles are still playing.



nick

> play base layer... wow, i'd forgotten about that.
> interesting idea, and i see i can assign it a key command.

I always knew it was around, but didn't start using it heavily until my last project, shot and directed by myself. Since I was also handling the photography, I felt compelled to colour-correct as I went, so to avoid driving myself insane with rendering I used Play Base Layer. To my delight, I hadn't even known that if the portion in question is rendered, it overrides the option and shows you the rendered effect as well. So I found it unnecessary to even turn it on and off.

> got it ticked in the RT menu, but un-rendered titles are still playing.

Hmm, that doesn't happen to me. What subtitles are you using?


www.derekmok.com

Did you switch render settings to 8 bit? I find that it increases RT performance.

You're in Thailand? For how long?



www.strypesinpost.com

Quote
nick
got it ticked in the RT menu, but un-rendered titles are still playing.

Quote
Derek
Hmm, that doesn't happen to me. What subtitles are you using?

well, i tested that in my current project with the basic text overlay, and some CC.
just now checked my subtitle project, which is with Andreas's Text Up Pro
same results
( i will test this with the basic text overlay, but without the text wrapping that TUP has, the subtitling will take longer, and i don't think that's feasible)

seems it only works when i go back to RT = "Safe" (yuk! that red line makes me think i'm in FCP2!)

and even then it only kick in if i do have the RED line, so if i have a grade on a clip with green or grey, then a red subtitle, the grade drops out under the subtitle!
of course our rushes will be so beautiful they wont need extra grading but what if i do a day for night or similar?

Quote
Strypes
Did you switch render settings to 8 bit? I find that it increases RT performance.

i checked, and they were set to 8-bit already. thats the default isn't it?

Quote

You're in Thailand? For how long?

i head over there early Jan for 8 weeks. lucky me!


cheers,
nick

Did you switch render settings to 8 bit? I find that it increases RT performance.

ok, my bad.

i only checked my PROXY sequence. seems that is set to 8-bit by default.
the LT sequence was set to 10-bit YUV.

i changed it, and you are right, it got me a bit more RT, but only in that all the GREEN Preview titles become GREY "Full" quality,
and i don't get any more, still only the first 50.

i might test my project on a top of the line system, and see what i get.
that'll be after the weekend, i imigine


nick

The RT engine errs on the side of caution. You should still be able to play it back, just maybe not on a broadcast monitor from what I recall, but you can try. I find it less sluggish when working in 8 bits.



www.strypesinpost.com

no, unfortunately once it hits the limit playback just gets really bad.

i had already doubled the stills memory cache to 20%. tried 50%, and ALL the subs went orange!

i also tried it in a ProRes422 sequence thinking it may be a bit less processor intensive,
but it's just the same.


nick

Nick,

That bad performance with subtitles is a known issue which never had been fixed.
Those times I worked on 'subtitle heavy' projects with one language only I always worked with 2 subtitle tracks and switched 1 to disabled. Then manually moved parts of the subtitles to the disabled track temporary. That's a bad workaround, but at least it faster than always rendering.

Andreas

hi, Andreas

i see, well that confirms what i have been seeing.
i was thinking i might have to disable / enable as i go.

i'm still considering an SD off-line.

maybe i could have a second set of graded rushes in HD
but this is a small budget film with not much time, and no money for extra assistants after the shoot.


thanks,
nick

Nick,

If you use the enable/disable route make sure to do this by tracks as you can merge tracks just by dragging real lot of clips up/down as you can select all clips of a track. If you would use enable/disable for clips using the standard keyboard command it's a lot more time consuming as this command toggles visibility, which means you have to select each clip manually.
One thing you could try - I don't have the time at the moment - how is performance if you use 4444 TIFF files as subtitles?

Andreas

thanks Andreas.

i could toggle visibility to a group of selected clips,
but bumping up to an un-enabled track does have it's advantages,
like i can just hit TT and select all previous subs and bump up.
but if i select all previous and Control B, it will make some visible, some invisible, depending on their current state.

i havent tried tiffs, but outside of the RT issue, i think working with an FCP generator will make for quicker work,
certainly at the subtitling stage, where we will have to subtitle 90 minutes of rushes a day.

i am planing on doing that in FCP.
with rushes, we can copy / paste from one take to another, then adjust timing.
would you suggest otherwise?


cheers,
nick

Hi Nick,

As I said cmd-B will be a bit more time consuming since you always have to make sure whether the selection contains either all visible or all invisible clips. Using 2 tracks is way more efficient.

The workflow using generators should be okay - subtitling 90 minutes per day is a lot of work.
But if of all of the stuff is Loatian how do you get the translation?

Regards
Andreas

we will get English / Laotian speakers to translate.
apparently they have someone lined up already.
i'm not sure i have this exactly right, but it is something like this: Born of Laotian Parents, Bought up in Australia, currently working in Thailand,
and experienced with FCP

did i mention? i did a test with an day's worth of rushes (65 mins) from my current project.
of course it is in English, so i was merely transcribing,
and of course i know the materiel rather well,
and of course, i am somewhat fast.

it took me 6 hours, and nearly drove me to tears of boredom!

so translating - 90 minutes - of unseen media
for 7 weeks...
let's hope we don't drive the poor fellow mad!


cheers,
nick

You must have a document already typed up with the script in English text, right?

You're probably done with that now, but here are a couple of tricks I use:

1. Always use the Group Selection tool (GG) in the timeline. This means you don't have to worry about accidentally moving, shortening or otherwise screwing with your edits or text. Group Selection works just fine for selecting and opening timeline clips.

2. Create one big piece of text overlay first, and let it cover the whole scene (or a large fraction, whatever). Paste a LARGE portion of the text into it. Now you can razor off one piece at a time and just go in and delete what isn't relevant. And if you make a mistake? The next piece contains the entire text block again, so just Roll it back to cover your current spot and do the deleting again. Much faster than going back and forth between FCP and the text software having to precisely copy the section you want.

3. Once the text object contains the text you want, do this: COMMAND-A, COMMAND-C. Now select the text clip in the timeline, COMMAND-9, COMMAND-V. This renames the clip to whatever its text is. That saves huge amounts of time in editing as you shorten scenes and move things around, because now you don't need to open the text to know what the subtitles say: You already have a visual of it right on the timeline.

4. Once every subtitle is created, you could consider dragging them all back into a bin. That way if you accidentally lose a subtitle, just drag it right back in.


www.derekmok.com

I worked on a feature last year where one third was in Spanish, and nobody in editorial is fluent (I know, I know, shameful). The editors just cut from the script up to a certain point. Then I (assistant) put in subtitles as text on the second track, and conformed them as I did audio passes.

After getting into the scene, you get to know the lines pretty quick, regardless of language. Of course it helped to have a Spanish-speaking director. And some of the film in Spanish is different than 100% in Laotian. In that case I might want subtitles baked into the dailies.

- Justin Barham -

thanks for the suggestions.

i find working in the minuscule text edit area in FCP's text generators very hard!
i've been doing something similar to your suggestion Derek with end credit info.
too hard for what we want.
i have some pretty good macros for the job:
mark in at the head of the sentence, watch i through, mark out,
then the macro plonks a generator in the in to out, opens it for you, and takes you to the text entry feild.

similarly, when done, i've got macros that will copy all the text from the generator into the generator's name, adding STL_ at the front.
so not only can i search for specific words, i can search for ALL subtitle clips.

another macro ads an extended clip marker for every subtitle, with the text.
so if i lose my subs, they can be re-built from markers.

if i was a programmer, i would do these tasks via XML!


these methods have worked for me on a few SCENES in the past, i imagine that all that info will increase the project size,
and i might have to work in smaller chunks (usually i like to split the film into 4 parts, might have to go more on this one?)


i agree i will eventually become familiar enough with the material to edit without the subs,
but i will need the subs to get to that stage!



cheers,
nick

Nick - it's a shame FCP7 is EOL - you could have released all your macros as a package. You're a macro machine - and most of us never even think of that option. In fact, I'm sure FCP7 is going to be around for a few years yet - have you thought of putting them out as a package?

Quote
Nick
if i was a programmer, i would do these tasks via XML!

XML is fine to change a massive amount of things inside a project in short time, but would be a not optimal solution for those things you described.
So your macros should be fine.

And I agree with Jude.

Andreas

MACROS

well macros are a funny thing.

they are very specific to the particular situation,
sometimes even the particular machine.

pauses, for instance are very important to program in,
as the macros can be fired off quicker than FCP can react.
and the duration can differ between systems..

they are also like a string of dominos set up ready to fall.
everything as to be just right for it to work.

if you set one off with the wrong window selected, then all sorts of crazy things could happen.
and watch out for a repeating macro with a delete command in it! your timeline could eat itself!

so if people just start using someone else's macro it's so easy for it to go wrong.
i'd be wary of just putting a bunch of them out there.

so i don't come across as being mean and selfish,
i'll say that i do help people set up macros for their workflows.
i've done that for two features this year.

part of it is walking them thought how QuicKeys works (i only know a very small potion of it, too)
part of it is modifying and refining my existing macros, or building new ones.


but i might write up and explain a couple of them in a later post, if people are keen.



cheers,
nick

ok, interesting development:

someone suggested i try re-compresing to 1280x720

i did, and i now get 170 subtitles with green RT, (that's covering 20 minutes of rushes)
and the remaining orange ones play fine.

so this might be a good compromise.


nick

Would make a great article for lafcpug Nick

Michael Horton
-------------------

I'm not trying to be provocative... (and this isn't much use to you)

but having just cut a doc with *lots* of subtitling I am a big fan of the Avid SubCap tool...

import/export of subtitles
global editing of style / box / opacity etc
easy text entry and editing

I had real time playback, but it was an SD project. I'll try it in an HD one when I next get the chance. I suspect it'll be real time on a NitrisDX.

I didn't particularly like the look I managed to get though... but the subs were all being redone in After Effects so the export was v. useful.