SD codec for Shot on Film project.

There is this young filmmaker I am trying to help out. He's shot on 16mm film, and he's getting a free telecine, and then they are doing an old school negative cut.

The telecine is going to be SD. He said they where going to do it in ProRes, which is acceptable. But since they don't know who will edit it. I suggested capturing using DV50 as a more system agnostic codec. Comments? suggestions?

If he's going back to a negative cut then the codec doesn't matter, as long as the quality is sufficient to be able to spot shots with soft focus. I've shied away from DV50 in the past for this reason and if I recall correctly, the last negative cut project I worked on was captured from Digibeta tapes as Uncompressed 4:2:2 (this was prior to the introduction of ProRes).

ProRes isn't actually a bad choice for cross-platform compatibility because any Windows PC with QuickTime 7 installed has the ability to play back ProRes files. You would have to render to a different codec, but this doesn't matter because you'll be going back to the negative anyway. An alternative would be Avid DNx, as this is a free codec pack available for encoding and decoding on Windows and Mac.

But the ultimate cross-platform format in my opinion is tape because you can capture in whatever codec and wrapper your NLE best supports.

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As this is a no budget project the ideal is best practice. and least use of resources. So telecine is right to the drive, Tapes would be a great comfort and backup but I think re-loading them and the cost of stock and rental on a deck would be prohibitive.

If a 720x480 ProRes is going to be a better image then DV50 then that is the way to go, and an Avid user will just have to trans-code.

DV50 isn't system agnostic unless its on tape as Jon mentioned. Avid has it's own way of handling DV25/50 as does Quicktime.

If it's the only choice ProRes would be a better option in my opinion. Especially if he cuts on one of the last couple of versions of Avid, Premiere or FCP.

Is he aware of the limitations of getting a neg cut finished film?

Make sure he gets the TK log files as EDLs and ALE and the editor who cuts it has done film before and if on FCP knows how to use Cinema Tools. Make sure the TK also has the KeyKode and Timecode burned into the offline output in case he needs to provide a manually entered cut-list due to a screw-up in the offline.

To be honest on low budget I'd plump for a good 1080pHD or 2K ProRes 422HQ or 4444 (1080HD will be enough for 16mm; unless he got some really fine grained images). With a best-light or at least a tech-light grade.

Spend a bit up front to get something that can be the final version and you need not go back to film unless absolutely necessary.

If he could get a Best-light or Tech-light on a Datacine output as LOG DPX files I'd do that as a preference to ProRes or other Video. He can then make Quicktime Proxies at whatever resolution he likes from them for the Offline, and use the DI for final conform and grade.

It's a good learning curve to work with film but I personally am very glad to move away from film for post and delivery. Pain in the proverbial in every way unless on a very decent budget.

Another reason (apart from budget) that getting an HD TK is better...

On a SD offline you will have no idea just how sharp the focus is, if a naked man is running in the small detail (actually an AVR12 video story for another day...).

Yes a thousands of films have been made that way but the process is flawed (bring it on purists!).

Lots of feature films are shot and posted on HD and no-one really notices.

Film is lovely, but there are numerous reasons it is dying and making a real ham-acted time of it. [shot of glamorous actress with back of hand on forehead fainting].



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Quote

this is a no budget project

Oh...

Oh dear...

Film is not a "no-budget" medium - a Free TK is only the start. If he's getting a free neg-cut and tech-light or best-light grade thats great but what about audio and prints?

I see $$$$$$$$s that don't form part of the "free" equation and certainly not for delivery.

Blag a "free" HD TK and make do with that for Edit and Delivery - that would be best "free" practice in our digital world.

Do let me know if he manages to do it budget free though - nothing I hate more than people working for nothing!



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Yeah I think the SD offline with negative cut, is a load of pain that in my mind will eventually stall the project into oblivion.

Thanks for stressing the differences of DV50 MXF and Quicktime. I was thinking of mentioning the burn-ins, now that you've said something I'll definitely make a mention of those as well as the ALES.

Thanks

I mean don't get me wrong - film and video offline is a horrible and nasty process that is sooooo satisfying when it goes right but has many pitfalls that will rip your heart out and and make you sick to your stomach when it goes wrong and you can't easily rectify it.



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Ben makes a good point. When doing a negative cut, you have to be very careful how you cut it because anything other than straight cuts counts as a special effect and needs the additional expense of an optical. This includes cross dissolves, titles, using the same frame more than once, etc.

My software:
Pro Maintenance Tools - Tools to keep Final Cut Studio, Final Cut Pro X, Avid Media Composer and Adobe Premiere Pro running smoothly and fix problems when they arise
Pro Media Tools - Edit QuickTime chapters and metadata, detect gamma shifts, edit markers, watch renders and more
More tools...

a second everything that's been said about a neg-cut approach,
(and i was one of the real hold-outs, cutting on film to the very end)

in particular the vfx side of things as John mentioned

i find i have more and more vfx in my edits these days,
nothing too flashy, but lots of simple composites & speed effects. all invisible in the edit, but very helpful for adjusting timings, etc

if you can shoot on neg, great,
but the only real reason to go back to the neg is to SCAN in the used frames for a DI.

even that approach could be overkill for a short with no budget,
and a good HD telecine followed by a grade in Resolve will look great compered to 16mm print


nick

oh, BTW, the last SD off-line i did was 16mm to Digibeta, captured as DV25

the film had a grainy look, so dv25 was fine for cutting
but we missed a couple of soft shots, and had to do some re-cutting during the grade.
i reckon we would have missed those shots even if we were using ProRes.


nick

The neg cut sounds like a bad idea, unless that's already firm in place, I'd consider the cheap DI route. You'll have problems finding an affordable neg cutter these days anyway.

As Nick suggested, you could go "Poor Man's DI", where you wouldn't go back to the negative after TK. You have it transferred to HD with a basic neutral grade with the idea that you'll finish back on that at the end. So once it's off film, it's an easy video online/offline workflow -- you're just going back to the HD transfer. You just want to make sure it's transferred with the idea that it's going to be mastered to, not rescanned.

If you do decide to scan the neg at some point, you'll want to make sure to get ALEs from the TK session to track the Key numbers in Cinema Tools or Media Composer. Dan Brockett did an excellent article on that here.

- Justin Barham -

I couldn't agree more. If it where my film and I didn't have the money for a scan, I'd cook something up with a desktop scanner.

This filmmaker is committed to going the analogue route.

>>This filmmaker is committed to going the analogue route.
<<

Hee hee. Another young masochist.

Used to be that they even shot news on film. Imagine having to shoot, get back to base, develop, cut and get to air by 5pm every day. Nightmare. The camera guys tell me in those days they only shot three minutes per story though.