dual format VCR question

hi all,

this is a bit of a far reach - but i thought i'd ask anyway.

i'm supposed to dupe some VHS tapes and edit them in FCP, add transitions, fades, etc. FCP-wise a pretty simple stuff. however, the tapes i have are partly in PAL, partly in NTSC.

all i have for grabbing them is a simple USB grabber which lets me grab directly to ProRes. for the PAL tapes, i see the correct frame dimensions and frame rate. for the NTSC tapes, i see proper frame rate, but a size of 640x480, when i expected 720x480. i'm using a sony vcr that plays back both standards. could it be that it messes with the frame size and that's how it's able to play back both standards? would i need a north american model to capture the NTSC tapes?

thanks,
stefan

--
macpro 2x3 ghz dual core intel, 10.6.8, FCS 2

Could be sticky settings in the VCR-- have you tried swicthing to NTSC, shutting down, turning it on again, then try capture?

Also, once captured, it's no biggie to open each QuickTime file in QuickTime Player Pro and change the aspect ratio to 720, then Save. I do it all the time from 640 X 480 NTSC when ripping DVD sources.

- Open the Properties dialog (Command-J)
- Select Video track
- In the bottom half of the dialog, select Visual Settings tab
- Uncheck Preserve Aspect Ratio
- Type in 720
- ReCheck Preserve AR
- Close Dialog
- File> Save

Those clips should load into standard DV timeline without issue, assuming your audio is 48K, not 44.1.

- Loren

Today's FCP 7 keytip:
Invoke the big TimeCode Viewer with Control -T !

Your Final Cut Studio KeyGuide? Power Pack
with FCP7 KeyGuide --
now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

hi loren,

thanks for the tips... there's no manual switching between standards on the VCR - it does everything by itself, so no control here.

but your second suggestion is even more interesting. you said that you do this all the time - are you saying that 640x480 is also an adopted NTSC standard? i thought it should always be 720x480.

i tried what you suggested but then of course, the frame is distorted accordingly. i would have expected the capture be distorted at that size and be stretched to normal after the operation, but it's the other way round.
so either my capture device is out of whack or the VCR puts out a strange frame size (not distorted, however).

my options seem to be
640x480 (bad frame size, proper aspect ratio)
720x540 (bad frame size, proper aspect ratio)
720x480 (proper frame size, bad aspect ratio)

incidentally, the captured quicktime files are not labeled as NTSC in the QT player info pane. the PAL ones are, however, being the proper frame size and rate.

puzzled,
stefan

--
macpro 2x3 ghz dual core intel, 10.6.8, FCS 2

Stefan-

There is a quirk in NTSC analog video when it is made digital. The number you are expecting, 720x486, assumes that the pixels are not square, but rather have a .9 aspect ratio. This has to do with the frequency that the digital system uses to clock the capture of the analog signal.

When you see 640x480 it means that the image is using computer native square pixels. So that raster has the same video. It should look fine on your timeline. If there is any confusion you will see video that is slightly out of aspect. Look to see that circles are round and not egg shaped.

-V

V-

Just bringing 640 into the timeline hasn't always worked for me, and I end up with VGA in the 720 X 480 timeline, this is why I use the "prep" procedure outlined above. But yes, the "circle test" is where it's at.

- Loren

Today's FCP 7 keytip:
Invoke the big TimeCode Viewer with Control -T !

Your Final Cut Studio KeyGuide? Power Pack
with FCP7 KeyGuide --
now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

ah, yes i forgot about the pixel shapes. thanks so much guys for straigthening my head out once in a while! looks like i can keep going now!

one problem solved. another one to surely lurk around the corner ;-)

stefan

--
macpro 2x3 ghz dual core intel, 10.6.8, FCS 2

There are also 2 frame sizes in NTSC land- 720x480 and 720x486. Very important to get this correct so as not to mess up the fields.



www.strypesinpost.com

why would you mess up the fields? is the field order different in one vs. the other? i always thought that everything except DV is upper/odd first.

stefan

--
macpro 2x3 ghz dual core intel, 10.6.8, FCS 2

In a simplistic sense 720x480 is the domain of DVD, whilst 720x486 would be Betacam.

You said the DVD was both PAL in parts, and in others NTSC.
Have you considered digitizing to FCP via a World Standard VHS Converter?




stefangs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> why would you mess up the fields? is the field
> order different in one vs. the other? i always
> thought that everything except DV is upper/odd
> first.
>
> stefan

mark@avolution Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In a simplistic sense 720x480 is the domain of
> DVD, whilst 720x486 would be Betacam.
>
> You said the DVD was both PAL in parts, and in
> others NTSC.
> Have you considered digitizing to FCP via a World
> Standard VHS Converter?


hi mark,
my sources are VHS tapes rather than DVD. some tapes are in PAL format from germany, some in NTSC from the states. my player is a Sony SLV-E830 which can play both formats.

i don't know what the worlds standard vhs converter is, but shouldn't the VCR be ok? now that i know that the difference in frame size is really just a difference in pixel aspect, it seems to me that all is well.

stefan

--
macpro 2x3 ghz dual core intel, 10.6.8, FCS 2

Sounds like the Sony deck you have is a world standard deck, although ours
does SECAM as well.

Good luck!


stefangs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mark@avolution Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > In a simplistic sense 720x480 is the domain of
> > DVD, whilst 720x486 would be Betacam.
> >
> > You said the DVD was both PAL in parts, and in
> > others NTSC.
> > Have you considered digitizing to FCP via a
> World
> > Standard VHS Converter?
>
>
> hi mark,
> my sources are VHS tapes rather than DVD. some
> tapes are in PAL format from germany, some in NTSC
> from the states. my player is a Sony SLV-E830
> which can play both formats.
>
> i don't know what the worlds standard vhs
> converter is, but shouldn't the VCR be ok? now
> that i know that the difference in frame size is
> really just a difference in pixel aspect, it seems
> to me that all is well.
>
> stefan

it might be a world standard deck... not sure, since i never had a SECAM tape in my hands. at least everything seems to work right now. the stack of tapes to be digitized is getting smaller every day :-)

stefan

--
macpro 2x3 ghz dual core intel, 10.6.8, FCS 2