weird error

i need to cut out a section of a movie i received via email. it's an mp4 something. because editing that directly in fcp expectedly didn't go over so well, i opened the clip in quicktime (plays fine) and exported it using Prores and uncompressed audio. the export converted copy also plays fine in quicktime.

when i drag that into fcp, i get an error 'Unknown file'. dragging into the browser/timeline or using the import function makes no difference, except that the latter is somewhat more verbose by stating "1 file recognized, 0 permission denied, 1 unknown".

what's up with that?

stefan

--
macpro 2x3 ghz dual core intel, 10.6.8, FCS 2

Did you export as self-contained?

It's also possible the MPEG-4 may have some kind of corruption on it, or anti-copy function. Since you didn't give any of your settings -- either on the original file or on the re-exported copy -- we won't be able to make too many educated guesses.


www.derekmok.com

if it's corrupt, how do i know? quicktime plays the file just fine. it's definitely not protected, since it's a client-customer scenario. settings are (according to quicktime info panel):

source file:
AVC coding, 1280x720, millions
AAC stereo, 48K
FPS 50

converted file:
ProRes, 1280x720
16 bit integer, 48K, little endian
FPS 50

now that i look at these figures, i wonder why the hell these clips have 50 fps. if i step though the frames with the arrow cursor in quicktime player, only every other tap updates the frame. looks like perhaps there is some sort of frame doubling going on. could that be the problem? then the error message would be rather cryptic, i'd say.

and yes, i exported as self contained.

stefan

--
macpro 2x3 ghz dual core intel, 10.6.8, FCS 2

Sounds like you have PAL footage playing udner NTSC or something. Use Compressor or Episode to change the frame rate standard to NTSC?

- Loren

Today's FCP 7 keytip:
Advance to next/previous keyframes in a clip with Shift/Option-K !

Your Final Cut Studio KeyGuide? Power Pack
with FCP7 KeyGuide --
now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

I'm curious as to whether the clip is 50fps with frame doubling. 50 or 60 fps was the original broadcast format for 720p.



www.strypesinpost.com

no, it's all PAL. shot and edited in germany. my timeline is also PAL.

stefan

--
macpro 2x3 ghz dual core intel, 10.6.8, FCS 2

strypes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm curious as to whether the clip is 50fps with
> frame doubling. 50 or 60 fps was the original
> broadcast format for 720p.


hm, that's interesting. i'm sure i can find out from the editor. i'll give that a try, thanks!

stefan

--
macpro 2x3 ghz dual core intel, 10.6.8, FCS 2

stefangs, it's curious indeed. 50p with frame doubling is possible, but who or what made it? H.264, such as your source file is, would have a hard time with frame doubled material (since H.264 relies on regularities in frame-to-frame change). Conversely, it is conceivable that a corrupt H.264 50p source file would display with frame doubling.

QuickTime is a playful player which takes liberties with source material. The FCP refusal means something.
You might put your source file through an .mp4-to-.mts converter and then try VoltaicHD on the .mts.

If you ever do get it into your timeline, 1280x720 is not PAL.

Dennis Couzin
Berlin, Germany

Can you check remove duplicate frames in the L&T preference?



www.strypesinpost.com

dcouzin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> stefangs, it's curious indeed. 50p with frame
> doubling is possible, but who or what made it?
> H.264, such as your source file is, would have a
> hard time with frame doubled material (since H.264
> relies on regularities in frame-to-frame change).
> Conversely, it is conceivable that a corrupt H.264
> 50p source file would display with frame
> doubling.
>
> QuickTime is a playful player which takes
> liberties with source material. The FCP refusal
> means something.
> You might put your source file through an
> .mp4-to-.mts converter and then try VoltaicHD on
> the .mts.
>
> If you ever do get it into your timeline, 1280x720
> is not PAL.


i just looked at the source clip with 'MediaInfo' and this is what it spits out on the video part (short list):

Format :AVC
Format/Info :Advanced Video Codec
Format profile :Main@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC :No
Format settings, ReFrames :2 frames
Codec ID :avc1
Codec ID/Info :Advanced Video Coding
Bit rate mode :Variable
Bit rate :29.3 Mbps
Maximum bit rate :40.0 Mbps
Width :1 280 pixels
Height :720 pixels
Frame rate mode :Constant
Frame rate :50.000 fps
Standard AL
Scan type rogressive


the interesting part seems to be ReFrames. not that i ever heard of that. but i guess that's the source of the problem. perhaps the conversion didn't properly cope with that. i could also try streamclip.

but why did you say 1280x720 isn't pal. MediaInfo thinks so. are you suggesting only interlaced 4:3 stuff is PAL? would it matter?

stefan

--
macpro 2x3 ghz dual core intel, 10.6.8, FCS 2

It's possible, but unlikely, that the video was shot 1280x720/25p and someone converted it to 50p by frame doubling. Can you find out the history of the footage?

MediaInfo reads headers. It doesn't examine the file contents.

The "Re" in "ReFrames" means reference, not repeat. So this isn't your problem.

The 29.3 Mbps average is a reasonable bitrate for AVC 1280x720/50p. I said earlier that H.264 would have a hard time with frame doubled material. Are there extra-smart H.264 versions with a "ditto function" for these frames? 29.3 Mbps is actually too high for an extra-smart coding of frame doubled 50p.

I'm surprised MediaInfo thinks the source video is PAL. In the digital video universe according to Apple PAL implies 720x576 pixels and 1280x720 is ATSC. Maybe there is no proper meaning of PAL beyond its original meaning for analog broadcast video.

Dennis Couzin
Berlin, Germany

in talking to my client, i found out that the material was rendered 50p because his impression is that this looks best on youtube for some reason. i don't know if that's true or not. i also don't know what his original source format is, but that probably doesn't matter.

is it possible that FCP 6.0.6 which i use does not support prores 50p, since that's a fairly recent format?

stefan

--
macpro 2x3 ghz dual core intel, 10.6.8, FCS 2

Nah. Unless he used twixtor or the optical flow settings in Compressor, which would have taken crazy amounts of time, you shouldn't get proper 60p. Rendering 25fps as 50 in FCP would duplicate the frames and as DCouzin said, drive h.264 encoding nuts.



www.strypesinpost.com

stefangs, even if your client made a mess of the footage, you have managed to make:

converted file:
ProRes, 1280x720
...
FPS 50

which QT can play. It's a .mov file, right? Try converting the "converted file" to ProRes 1280x720 25p in Compressor. Choose a ProRes codec for the Setting. Open Inspector. In Video Settings set Frame Rate to 25. In Frame Controls set Rate Conversion to Fast; Duration to 100% of source.

This recompression should produce a .mov file acceptible to FCP. Bring it into a fresh sequence. Let FCP change the sequence settings to match the clip. (You might still have to render the sound.)

Even if FCP did accept the bastard 50p it's better not to edit it as such for reasons given in another strand. A 720/25p timeline is truer to your footage than 720/50p. You can change it to something else after editing it.

Dennis Couzin
Berlin, Germany

my client has now (finally) acknowledged the problem. so instead of me jumping all over the place to convert this to something usable, he's going to render the material again with the proper format!

thanks to your comments i was able to give him decent directions. thanks everyone!

stefan

--
macpro 2x3 ghz dual core intel, 10.6.8, FCS 2

dcouzin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Try
> converting the "converted file" to ProRes 1280x720
> 25p in Compressor. Choose a ProRes codec for the
> Setting. Open Inspector. In Video Settings set
> Frame Rate to 25. In Frame Controls set Rate
> Conversion to Fast; Duration to 100% of source.
>
> This recompression should produce a .mov file
> acceptible to FCP. Bring it into a fresh
> sequence. Let FCP change the sequence settings to
> match the clip. (You might still have to render
> the sound.)
>
> Even if FCP did accept the bastard 50p it's better
> not to edit it as such for reasons given in
> another strand. A 720/25p timeline is truer to
> your footage than 720/50p. You can change it to
> something else after editing it.

even though the workflow has changed since, i tried your suggestion and yes, it worked! that's good background info, especially for a compressorly-challenged user like me. thanks for your help,

stefan

--
macpro 2x3 ghz dual core intel, 10.6.8, FCS 2