OT: Advice on prep before cutting short film

I am promo editor and I am about to start my first "film" editing so I feel like a beginner all over again.
The film hasn't been shot yet and I requested to be able to talk to the DP and the sound guy. But what should I ask them?!?! Or how should I phrase my requests?
Basically I don't want post to be a struggle as far as file management, frame rates, TimeCodes, etc....

Thx

You really need to talk to the DP, Sound people, and anyone making decisions about how the film will finish. i.e. The post co-ordinator/producer.

You're the middle step. You can ask the production staff what format is being shot and how the audio is being recorded and make decisions about your edit process based on that. How and what you're going to deliver to the on-line house is likely going to be affected by those same decisions

Production check list:
Camera/acquisition format (RED, Alexa, DSLR, film etc)

• acquisition frame size (HD, 2K 4K)
• acquisition media (tape, hard drive, other)

Sound acquisition system format (744/788, Deva/Nomad, H4n)

• If it's two system sound, getting the camera to record a scratch track can speed up syncing if you use Plural Eyes. It can also save you time if script organization breaks down.
• Ideally there should be one TC source that feeds the audio and picture systems. Down from there is a smart slate that is synced to the audio system. Down from there is the above mentioned Plural Eyes. Down from there is the classic but labour intensive simple slate clap on all sync takes and blocked slate on all MOS takes.
• Everyone should be shooting the same frame rate and TC format. Watch out for the "a guy is going to shoot some second unit stuff on a cheaper camera" There's nothing wrong with that but it tends to be less supervised and can really make your life difficult if they get the settings wrong.

Script organization. How organized will they be? (a lined script, cam reports, circled takes, nothing but a bunch of scribbled notes)

That's some of it.
Then you have to figure out what the people after you will want.
Links back to the original footage (EDL, XML) and how is that managed.
What will you deliver to post audio?

It's a start...

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

Talk to the DIT/data wrangler. Tell him exactly how you want the mags named and sorted out, and tell them to have 2 verified copies of the cards at all time, make sure file directory structure is always kept.



www.strypesinpost.com

If you don't know what questions to ask, it means you're also learning as you go. One BIG recommendation is to make sure you get the footage after the first day's shoot, and start prepping. Do a test edit, export whatever deliverables would be for the final master, see what problems crop up. Any problems you have, or any flaws in their workflow, you really should find out after the first day. People doing short films have a very nasty habit of shooting everything before even asking an editor what to do, or they base their assumptions of the editing process on internet articles and forum entries -- which isn't nearly enough, but give people the impression of being informed.

Test, test, test.


www.derekmok.com

Be a real film editor then, get a knowledgeable assistant, and eff the technical details. Bury yourself in the story and the cutting, and let some other guy handle that stuff. Life will be better. Besides all the other niceties having an assistant can provide like continuities, harassing the production mixer for you, generally fielding any calls from production about continuity issues...etc.

Besides, you can't possibly keep up with production by prepping dailies and cutting. Unless your working with dailies with married audio shot in ProRes or a codec sympatico with your NLE.

And make sure you've got good storage and a backup system ready to go. Things can get crazy when the footage starts pouring in, especially now that there's often no tape to pay for, some people shoot till everyone's eyes are bleeding.

all of the above

Quote

I requested to be able to talk to the DP and the sound guy

i would ask for a small production meeting, with those people, the data wrangler, AND THE PRODUCERS present.


another technical conversation i have is on slating:
eg TC slate or not
American vs European slating (i like American)

best practice is to have good, solid TC on the camera, and on the audio recorder.
that way you can use TC to sync.
pluraleyes seems problematic to an old-schooler like me as i know sync can be off on the camera audio,
plus, i really believe that going though your rushes in a systematic manner is the best way to deal with them.

i used Sync n Link this year, and found it great (it need accurate TC to work)

a really big part of editorial during the shoot is to check that everything is AOK and on track.
this is both a TECHNICAL issue and a CREATIVE issue.

yes, you need to know that the sound is not drifting, that the cameras are in focus,
but you also need to know that you are getting enough coverage, and that other creative aspects are working out as hoped.

these are two separate jobs
one person cant really be expected to do all the rushes prep, AND an assembly
so Ethan is right, get an assistant.

and if you can get an experienced assistant, that is great.

and of course these two jobs have to happen as the shoot is progressing, on a DAILY basis.
thats why they are called DAILIES in the US.
The European term of RUSHES is of course very apt, as there should be no waiting around, everything should happen ASAP

so they shoot on Monday,
the Rushes get processed or transcoded on Monday night
& then synced up and put into the system on Tuesday
and the 1st assembly is done on Wednesday.

this is a pretty classic workflow.
these days there are ways to make it a bit slicker, but not much.

------ but there is one REALY IMPORTANT step i have left out!!! -----

shoot monday, sync etc tuesday

WATCH YOUR RUSHES TUESDAY NIGHT!!!
& TOGETHER!!! not just on vimeo!

i cant tell you how important this is. (but i'll try!)

• it is another part of the process of everybody checking that everything is AOK,
technically, and creatively.

• it starts a dialogue between you and the director
this is important for the interpersonal aspects, PLUS it gets the edit going on the right foot.
you could waste days cutting scenes with takes that aren't the favourites

• it boosts morale (even more-so when you can screen a well-assembled scene)

i worked on a short last year (10 day shoot).
before the shot everyone (including the director) was like "oh, do we have to?" & "we'll be too tired", etc, etc
and they straggled during the first week,
but after a while they found that watching the rushes was a real shot in the arm for them,
and more and more people would turn up.
(we always made it fun with snacks & drinks, and of course assemblies)

these days, now that people shoot too much, make sure you have a selects-only timeline,
PLUS another timeline with everything, on standby.
(it helps to colour your selects)

-----------------------------------------------------------------


Derek's point re test, test, test
yes! yes! yes!

but i would say don't wait for the rushes to start coming in.
if they are doing camera tests, ask them to run some sound, shoot some sync, and let you test your processes


Jude's point re Drives etc.
what i do now is to get them to buy the drives.
X number or TBs for the master media x 2 or more
and Y number of TBs for the edit media x 2 or more


good luck with the project, have fun!

nick

>Then you have to figure out what the people after you will want.
>Links back to the original footage (EDL, XML) and how is that managed.
>What will you deliver to post audio?

This is a very important point as well. Very often, I see post production improvising as things happen, and not testing the pipeline early causes unnecessary stress for everyone, sometimes compromising the quality of the deliverables, or causing unnecessary delays.

Know who is going to color grade the film, who is doing the VFX, who is going to do the audio post, who will be mastering the deliverables (dolby encoding, DCP, tape, etc..).And what all of them need. Many times in post, you need to work backwards.



www.strypesinpost.com

Thanks all for these priceless advices.
So many that I have to read and re-read them to make sure I don't miss a thing.

Nick Meyers Wrote:

> pluraleyes seems problematic to an old-schooler
> like me as i know sync can be off on the camera
> audio,
> plus, i really believe that going though your
> rushes in a systematic manner is the best way to
> deal with them.

Yeah what is up with these DSLRs, There up to 3 frames out?!

Yeah, I can't rely entirely on Plural Eyes. Best case scenario is using it to line up everything in a sequence and get it close. Insist on a slate clap. ALWAYS!! And a pox on people who give up on the slate and just do the hand clap. If there isn't a snake infested jungle or artillery warfare going on behind you, get the slate.

PE can be a good organizer when you have reams of files with inscrutable names. It can be a big help getting yourself out of someone else's disorganized mess. If you at least know the times the files were created you can put a whole bunch of say, the morning's files into one timeline and let PE figure out what goes with what, then move ahead and do a real sync, delete cam audio, merge, and drag to a bin.
Especially if you like to work with sync sequences as prep. and backup.

I like what DSLR has done for the picture quality:cost ratio but there are some things about it that we will one day laugh about having put up with.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

"If there isn't a snake infested jungle or artillery warfare going on behind you, get the slate." Ahh, I like the cut of your jib, Mr Kines.

oh, here's anther small but important thing to ask for:

if they shoot any off-speed material, get them to roll sound (ALWAYS roll sound! you need the guide)

plus ask them to please PLEASE get both a HEAD and a TAIL slate on those shots
(you can do a fit to fill edit to sync)

then ask them AGAIN for a hd & tl slate,
and beg and grovel,
or shout in their faces,
anything to make them remember.

in my experience they never do, but it wont hurt to try.
probably best to have a word to the camera assistant about this

nick

On a short narrative you often tackle both IT prep and editing.

On longform, you need help to stay no more than 3 days behind the shoot at height of production, and the sooner the better to determine if more materials should be shot while the set or locale is still available.

As editor you're looking for missing coverage, you're able to suggest inserts that might be done while on a break in shooting other scenes-- today these can be accomplished with a portable green screen for an actor already on set, instead of old school, where they picked a wall on whatever shoot they were doing, painted a canvas with vague detail to be thrown out of focus so it'll cut with pre-shot locale, and shot the actor's missing singles or doubles- often the editor visited to take charge of insert shooting- a terrific opportunity to practice directing.

Those rushes screenings are very critical; this is often first working contact with your director; pay attention to his or her favorites and any ideas thrown at you for assembly. Some times you're given free reign in selecting scenes among the prints or holds, other times the director has very distinct ideas about how the scene unfolds and you're there to make it happen.

Best, as always,
Loren S. Miller

In addition to those things about TC Andrew mentioned I would add LTC as a very reliable option.
DSLRs right now don't have TC, but audio in (most times) so you can record LTC to an audio track synched to the audio recorder's TC. Same is valid for some other cameras. When shooting with several cams where some won't have the option to sync TC to the audio HDR it's a big help.

Andreas

Some workflow tools for FCP [www.spherico.com]
TitleExchange -- juggle titles within FCS, FCPX and many other apps.
[www.spherico.com]

>On longform, you need help to stay no more than 3 days behind the shoot at height of production and the sooner the better to determine if more materials should be
>shot while the set or locale is still available.

I agree with that. Once I was working on a drama and the director missed out on a reverse shot in a dialogue scene, we spotted that in edit that night, and they picked it up the day after. It's easy to pick up a shot or two while production is still on-going and even easier if they're still shooting at the same location.



www.strypesinpost.com

Thx again all for these precious advices!!!
Now the shoot is over.
Getting the footage on CF cards.
Any advice on having a smooth and reliable transfer from the cards to the Master/backUp drive?
I know some softwares/plugins are outhere but I don't have the budget for them...

Make Disk Images (OS X Disk Utility) of every CF card, put them, tidily, on the Back up drives and the OTHER back up drives. ( you have multiple back ups, right?)

I don't think you've told us what cameras were used, so the next step is to convert or copy the originals to your editing format.
How you do that depends on the acquisition format and how you're planning on finishing.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

canon 7d
so i can do Disk image, sure...

And then I have downloaded the EOS plug in from canon's website to bring the footage into FCP....

There are other options, yes, but the EOS plugin is an acceptable method of conversion.
Back up
Organize
Convert
Organize
Sync audio
Organize
Edit
Organize
Lock Picture
Organize
Export to ???

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

> And then I have downloaded the EOS plug in from canon's website to bring the footage into FCP....

One major flaw with using FCP's Log and Transfer to ingest Canon DSLR footage is that you can't do anything else while it's going on.

You can, as in the software allows you to, but the Log and Transfer process can fail to bring in a clip -- it will ingest, say, 20 seconds of a five-minute clip and you'd have no way of finding out (the ingested clip plays as if normal). There's no way to spot them automatically; truncated clips look exactly like as if the camera operator had cut the shot short. I've pretty much resigned myself to having to eye-match every clip's duration between the mounted memory card and the ingest clip, and re-queuing any errant clips by hand.

So, don't try to edit, convert or do anything else on that computer while it's going on, or it's just a waste of time. Using Compressor or MPEG Streamclip doesn't have this problem, but that creates the new problems of a) not having a batch list and b) not having timecode.


www.derekmok.com

5DtoRGB maintains the 7D's "TC" and if you use the Terminal/command line version you can use all your processors. I have only used it for offline conversions where the footage was reconverted somewhere else but I believe the quality to be equal to any other conversion.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

thx for the tip Derek.....
What are your thoughts on grabbibg the media of the CF cards.
I've read that sometimes during the basic drag and drop (af ALL the folders of course) onto the BU drive some folders aren't copied properly and you lose the footage? Hence using a plug-in.
Shane recommands Shotput Pro but it is $99.
Any free alternative or would you trust the drag&drop?

> I've read that sometimes during the basic drag and drop (af ALL the folders of course) onto the BU drive some folders aren't copied properly

When in doubt, test. I've never had that problem, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


www.derekmok.com

To do safe copy of cards you can use my copyCards it's free and secure and does have some additional options.

[www.spherico.com]

Andreas

Some workflow tools for FCP [www.spherico.com]
TitleExchange -- juggle titles within FCS, FCPX and many other apps.
[www.spherico.com]

+1 for Andreas' very useful tools.

If you're backing up the cards as images you don't have to drag and drop anything.

1. Make images from originals (Disk Utility or CopyCards)
2. Mount image
3. Point conversion utility to Mounted image
4. Convert
5. etc.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

You also can use Adobe Prelude, which verifies the data. I'm assuming you have CS6 on one of your machines. However, it doesn't copy some of the empty folders that may be required for FCP's log and transfer to work, so you have to manually copy those over.



www.strypesinpost.com

Awesome, thx!

I guess now I need the canon7d plug in to import the media into FCP.
Right now when I Log and Transfer I have a message saying it can't find the proper folders...

> I guess now I need the canon7d plug in to import the media into FCP.

The Canon E1 plugin should take care of all that.

Usually that message means whoever had backed up the original cards had failed to preserve the complete file structure. But I assume the CF cards you got were straight from the camera. Unless somebody was "smart" enough to dump some of the empty folders "for you". Had a project like that a month ago -- damn near doubled my prep time.


www.derekmok.com