Editors have you ever received this request?

I'm nearing picture lock on a film and I received an interesting request from the individual that will handle the post sound.

The person wants me to break the film down into 15 minutes reels and send the sound that way. Their reasoning is
"the track count can get rather high and I won’t be able to do as much sound design if the film is in one giant chunk".

Have you ever experienced this? Maybe I'm crazy and this is the norm in some circles but whenever I have transferred files to a sound person in the past, I'll send them the entire film and it's never been an issue.

The only thing I can think of is perhaps they are using an older system that can't handle it?

My main aversion to this is that it needlessly complicates matters and creates much more work for me. I would need to create 9 exports and sync them back up as opposed to 1.

Your thoughts?

Thank you,

Joe

actually, that's pretty standard.

having the film in sections can make it more manageable. i know i prefer to edit that way.

it used to be a physical requirement, and if you think you might need a film print, it still is, as a reel of film can only be so long.
how long?
well 21 minutes is the max where i am.
15 mins would be the minimum.

so your film is 135mins long? that's pretty long!

even while delivering in "reels" or "spools" is still standard for me,
all the sound people i work with do place them all into one large Session (ProTools lingo for project)
they don't join them end to end, but have them placed at 1 hr intervals.
(generally, each spool's 1st frame of pic starts on the hour, but everyone has their own system)

they do this for their respective edits (dialogue, effects, atmos)
but the final mix would be one session per spool.

the GOOD thing about working in spools is that if you make a change in one section of the film you don't have to do a complete re-export.


hope it goes well,
nick

Hey Nick,

Thanks for the insight. So you will actually edit the film in sections until picture lock?
I do this for a bit when cutting the rough, but then I'll put all scenes into one sequence
and edit in that big sequence until we're locked.


I miscalculated by saying 9 exports; the film is actually 90 minutes.


Since I currently have the entire film in one sequence, would the correct workflow be:

1. Break the film out into six new separate sequences of 15 minutes each.

2. Make sure the 1st frame of pic starts on the hour for each of these sequences.

3. Place the audio 2-pop at start and end of each of these sequences.

4. Export the files in the desired format.

5. Once work is completed, get the mixed tracks back from post sound.

6. Sync up tracks to each sequence.

7. Create a final new sequence, and assemble the reels to get the full 90 minute film.


I also assume I would want to try and find a natural breaking point for each of these reels. However, what if you would like to have audio overlapping scenes that occur between reel breaks, not necessarily dialogue, but it could be music, or background ambience.

Breaking the film into sections, or reels, or ACTS if on TV...is pretty normal. Not only managable on their end, BUT...OMF has a 2TB limit, so it's practical as well. If this is a feature, break it into 20 min sections.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
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hi, Joe.
sorry, i have been tied up for a few days

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So you will actually edit the film in sections until picture lock?

on a feature, i tend to edit in dramatic sections,
i break the film into 4 parts corresponding to the acts: 1, 2a, 2b, 3

each part is in a separate project.
the projects would be too large otherwise.

thats the general approach.
one recent film had a HUGE finale, so that had it's own 5th project
another had a HUGE middle section that spanned the mid-point, so that was in 3 projects, i think...

just prior to handover i re-structure into 5 or 6 spools

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1. Break the film out into six new separate sequences of 15 minutes each.

yep. personally i tend to COPY the main sequence x number of times and reduce it,
you'll minimise re-rendering that way.

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2. Make sure the 1st frame of pic starts on the hour for each of these sequences.
3. Place the audio 2-pop at start and end of each of these sequences.

dont forget a countdown & board, and a visual sync at the end, too,

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4. Export the files in the desired format.

here's a tip: arrange your audio tracks so that you have dialogue, sound effects and music on separate tracks.
then set your sequence audio outputs to 6 tracks, and send dialogue to 1+2, fx to 3+4 music to 5+6
this means anyone in sound post can simply disable what they don't want to hear
(do this while it is still one large sequence)

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5. Once work is completed, get the mixed tracks back from post sound.
6. Sync up tracks to each sequence.
7. Create a final new sequence, and assemble the reels to get the full 90 minute film.

yeah, i guess.
is the pic fully finished & graded or what?
i would probably just sync up the master audio w the master image, which would be like one file per reel, or maybe one file for the whole film in your case.


oh, yes, reel breaks...
yeah, no overlaps, definitely NO MUSIC overlaps!
and preferably on scene changes.
breaks in black are dangerous for picture reasons.


nick

So having done this on a couple of projects now, I have some questions:

About placing the sync pops, I've been following a workflow where it states to place the sync pops (audio/visual) 2 seconds before and 2 seconds after first/last frames of picture (those 2 seconds in between are black), but now that I think about it wouldn't it be best to place the sync pops in the direct frame preceding/following the first/last frames of picture? That way there's no black space? Or if there is it is clear that picture starts here.

Also regarding black space, I've ended and started reels on fade ins/outs, do you typically want to avoid that, because that sometimes results in the start or end of a reel in black for a couple seconds?

Is there a reason for only 1 frame of sync pop? It seems like it might be easier to sync if it was 1 second instead because you would have a fat line in the waveform.

Sometimes it seems like the file delivered to me the waveform is off a little bit visually 9it sounds in sync though), I don't know if that is he result of Editing being limited to frames while DAW's can go to even smaller unties.

> but now that I think about it wouldn't it be best to place the sync pops in the direct frame preceding/following
> the first/last frames of picture?

Absolutely not. The 2-pop goes where it goes -- two seconds before, at 00:59:58:00.

I've gotten specific requests sometimes where they'd ask for a one-frame slate like "Picture Begins" on the frame before the first frame of picture. But that is not in lieu of the 2-pop. It is in addition to the 2-pop.

> Is there a reason for only 1 frame of sync pop? It seems like it might be easier to sync if it was 1 second instead

Again, no. One frame of beep and one frame of picture line up perfectly. Which one do you think it's easier -- an on-set stick slap of four frames long, or a clear spike of one frame long?

Don't reinvent the wheel. Conventions work because there is an unspoken understanding in all departments about how they work.


www.derekmok.com

Sure, just curious, do you know the reason for placing the pop 2 seconds before/2 seconds after?

Because in film, there was a leader that counted down from 10 to 2. When it got to 2, it only flashed 1 frame of the 2...or a white frame...with a BEEP. Before one made the print, the audio and picture were separate, so you needed this to ensure they were in sync. Now..why two seconds BEFORE picture? So that you could ensure things were in sync...then stop the projector...set it before picture start so when you started it picture and audio immediately faded up. If you had the sync pop on the frame right before picture...then everyone would see and hear it.

This is an old convention from the film days, that is carried over to current day. But still works so why change it?


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

It was still useful even in the tape playback days.
In broadcast environments, you would cue up a reel to reel deck and wind back, sometimes by hand, to the cue pop. For most situations the "roll tape" command from the control room was enough time for the tape deck to get up to speed and the element to start on picture and allow for a switcher to cross or cut to the tape.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

[This is an old convention from the film days, that is carried over to current day. But still works so why change it?]

Beyond the 2-pop plus 47 black frames before first frame of picture, another convention was to break the film down into ten minute "reels" which was very standard back in the day; mixing rooms prepared ten minute sections on split reels for easy "rock and roll" punch-ins.

"Balancing" the film among reels no longer than ten minutes was also standard. Norman Hollyn's first edition assistant editor's book covered this very well.

Today, most of this practice is gone. Today it's all about file size limits, and they're mostly gone if you avoid OMF.

- Loren

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>>For most situations the "roll tape" command from the control room was enough time for the tape deck to get up to speed and the element to start on picture and allow for a switcher to cross or cut to the tape.<<

And, later, enough time to get your fingers out of the way when they remote rolled!

To replaced by the current command from the director, "rolltapetaketape" in a single word that is about 15 ms long.