Best codec for H.264 camera footage

I tried to search for this, because I know it's been discussed a hundred times, but search comes up empty on "H.264" - go figure.

I have a camera that stores its movie footage as H.264. I'm pretty sure I remember that this is not a good codec for editing. Am I remembering right? What should I convert it to, if it needs converting at all?

> What should I convert it to, if it needs converting at all?

Convert to one of the ProRes codecs. As for which one to choose, that depends on your workflow, amount of footage, amount of available storage, system capabilities, etc.


www.derekmok.com

I converted to ProRes LT, hoping it would have the least file size impact. A 56 MB clip went to 283 MB. That's going to be a problem with an actual project at this point. My first effort is going to be a personal movie, no need for great quality. Is there a better ProRes option, or can I live with H.264 without tearing my hair out? So far it seems to behave OK in a timeline - what's the down side to H.264?

> So far it seems to behave OK in a timeline - what's the down side to H.264?

If you want your edits to disappear or change without warning, with no chance of recovery...sure. Use H.264 in FCP7.

If you really want to skip the conversion step, then move to FCPX or Adobe Premiere, one of the newer editing applications that can edit this format better with more stability.


www.derekmok.com

Well, I have Premier Pro as part of my Adobe CC package. I have not yet used it, but it looks like it's time to learn. Thanks for the info, Derek.

Quote
derekmok
If you want your edits to disappear or change without warning, with no chance of recovery...sure.

FCP7 project autosave can be set as frequent as every minute.

Dennis Couzin
Berlin, Germany

> FCP7 project autosave can be set as frequent as every minute.

Autosaves and manual backups of project files don't do a thing to guard against this problem, because the problem is with how the project files interact with the media files. In every instance in the past where I've seen this problem, the lack of timecode means that even older projects will reconnect to the wrong part of the video, destroying your edits. The only fix was to redo the edit. In cases where I was forced to use H.264 files, I would edit quickly and then export the edit to ProRes as quickly as possible, thus enabling the use of those ProRes exports as editing media if necessary.


www.derekmok.com

>can I live with H.264 without tearing my hair out?

No. It gets crashy and playback will be much than optimal.

FCP7 wasn't designed for native editing of h.264. If you want to go native, use premiere.



www.strypesinpost.com

To Derek: You say the H.264 edits "disappear or change without warning, with no chance of recovery" and that "backups of project files don't do a thing against this problem". If rolling back the project file by one minute lets you edit again, even if further editing may cause a breakdown, then this is a "restore". How could the project backup file not accomplish this, since FCP7 does not changed the source files? That's all I meant. With luck the fragile restore will allow a self-contained QT to be exported, as you suggested.

I just now tried to make FCP7 break down at editing H.264. The source files were .mov in H.264 codec. The edit used lots of single frame cuts and all possible time effects. It didn't break down, yet. Whatever the weakness in FCP7's handling of H.264 clips probably can be explained, and maybe avoided. Does frequent full rendering help?

"Without warning" just means we're ignorant of where FCP7's weakness lies. "How the project files interact with the media files" and "lack of timecode" fail to explain why FCP7 does manage to edit H.264, until it doesn't.

To strypes, what exactly does "native" mean in this context? What does Premiere do differently with H.264? Apple says this about how FCP7 treats another interframe compression codec:

Quote
Final Cut Pro 7 Professional Formats and Workflows
When you edit two HDV clips together in a sequence, the GOP pattern is typically broken. In particular, cutting an HDV clip can remove the I-frame that subsequent P- and B-frames rely on for picture information. When this happens, Final Cut Pro must preserve the I-frame for these other frames to refer to, even though the I-frame is no longer displayed in the sequence. Final Cut Pro reconforms the broken GOPs in the vicinity of the edit and leaves the subsequent GOPs unchanged.

I don't understand why FCP7 cares that the I-frame "is no longer displayed in the sequence". It's still in the source clip, and still referenceable by the project file. The mentioned "reconform" amounts to a short recompression, and it must be stored somewhere. But there is no render file produced each time a cut is made. Probably the quote is blarney.

FCP7 is more error-prone than Premiere with H.264, but is this because of non-nativeness or just sloppiness?

Dennis Couzin
Berlin, Germany

> You say the H.264 edits "disappear or change without warning, with no chance of recovery" and that "backups of project files don't do a thing against this problem".
> If rolling back the project file by one minute lets you edit again, even if further editing may cause a breakdown, then this is a "restore".

"Rolling back the project file by one minute" doesn't fix this problem.

This problem doesn't happen to all projects, but the fact that it happens at all makes the H.264 workflow inviable. A 120-minute feature film does not tolerate the risk of edits becoming randomly dislodged.

> I just now tried to make FCP7 break down at editing H.264. The source files were .mov in H.264 codec. The edit used lots of
> single frame cuts and all possible time effects. It didn't break down, yet.

Just because it didn't happen in one day doesn't mean it won't.

> Does frequent full rendering help?

No. I don't leave anything in my timeline unrendered, as a matter of habit. The minute I lock on a decision on effects and modifications, I render and leave it rendered. And I ditch the render files from time to time because they can get unstable, and re-render to flush the render files to get cleaner performance.

> How could the project backup file not accomplish this, since FCP7 does not changed the source files?

If you haven't seen the problem yourself, I can't help you. You're talking to an FCP user who has been using every version since FCP1, backs up like a maniac, and has an array of tricks (restart, preference dump, repair permissions, ditching render files, copying the content to a new sequence, copying the contents to a brand-new project file, reconnecting/disconnecting the clip, disk diagnostics/repairing the directory, moving the project file, moving the media, resaving a copy of the source file...) to fix most problems like these. Older project files that had been intact -- even when they do not require a visible reconnect, since the media didn't move -- still connect to the wrong part of the clip, which is not the case with normal project-file corruptions.


www.derekmok.com

Quote
derekmok
If you haven't seen the problem yourself, I can't help you.

I haven't seen the problem because I never edit in H.264 in FCP7. Who would, after reading in this forum about its problems?

My experiment was just to study how FCP7 edits H.264. Does it modify the source file? No. Does it put a little render bar near a cut? No. Does it secretly render? No. Does it handle a shortened clip differently from a cut clip? No. Does the .xml show oddities in frame counting? I don't think so.

When a program sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, programmer's curiosity, even beyond user's curiosity, is piqued. I haven't lived so long with Macs and FCP that I regard them as inscrutable organisms doing things to each other.

Dennis Couzin
Berlin, Germany

Derek wrote-

[A 120-minute feature film does not tolerate the risk of edits becoming randomly dislodged. ]

Oh, heck, that used to happen to me in native NTSC-DV!! LOL

- Loren

Today's FCP 7 keytips:
Copy clip Attributes with Command-C
Paste selected Attributes with Option-V
Remove selected Attributes with Command-Option-V !

Your Final Cut Studio KeyGuide™ Power Pack.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

I'm with the 'don't go there' crew. H.264 is not stable in FCP7, and the damage is not reversible once a glitch occurs, in my experience. Better to convert to ProRes before editing, or use a different program.

Quote
dcouzin
I haven't seen the problem because I never edit in H.264 in FCP7. Who would, after reading in this forum about its problems?

I finally dared to edit a little piece in 1920x1080 50i H.264 (clips straight from an AVCHD unwrapped by ClipWrap). After three hours, the edit disappeared without warning just as Derek warned. FCP7 crashed hard, losing its preferences, and the project file was empty!

However, there were project files autosaved every 30 minutes, and Preference Manager restored FCP7. I then converted all the H.264s to ProRes and changed the system settings and reconnected the clips in the latest saved project file. Lesson learned.

Dennis Couzin
Berlin, Germany