I think I hate Avid (stupid rant)

/rant -on

Just a somewhat pointless rant here, but Avid really drives me nuts. I've had a little experience with it in the past, but I've developed what skills I have on FCP. Recently I've been doing the odd extra shift on an Avid, and it infuriates me. I feel like I can't do anything. It's like editorial impotence! I can't seem to just grab something and move it. Every basic edit is like a puzzle to be solved. "OK to delete track?" Delete the whole friggin' track? Why would I want to do that?

OK, I know it's unfair to judge a system so quickly, especially compared to having far more experience in FCP. And I know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. But it really seems like they ("they" being the enigmatic overlords behind the Avid GUI) are playing some kind of sick joke on us. Or maybe just me personally?

I suppose what is really frustrating is that I realize that I need to learn the ways of Avid, eventually. Uggg...

Sorry for the bitter, totally non-constructive rant. I'm really not trying to cause a flame war. In fact, I'm sure I'm totally wrong, but I just needed to vent about my personal frustrations. Thanks for listening.

/rant -off



- Justin Barham -

Justin,


I'm assuming that you're serious and sincere. (not just taking controversial stance)
It's refreshing to hear the other side of the coin! I'd invite you to come speak to our staff (veteran Avid editors recently converted to FCP), but I can't afford the hospital bills you'd incur! I think a NLE preference is largely based on what you "grew up with".

Mark

Yeah, this is pretty much the same thing Avid users say when trying out FCP. :-)

Its human nature to hate what we Don't know and frustrating to learn a different way. Like Mark says, its what you grow up with.

That said, come to the August 24 lafcpug meeting and see Xpress Pro on OSX Tiger. I can give you vegetables to throw at the screen.

DISCLAIMER TIME:
OK... this is not a FLAME WAR, but my "experienced Editor's opinion" - I use both NLE's daily:

"...I can't seem to just grab something and move it"

Believe it or not, this is a huge problem in FCP if you are not used to it. Have you ever cut a long form project with thousands of cuts / stills / transitions in FCP and accidentally clicked & dragged your mouse in the timeline - moving a dozen clips to g_d knows where??? That's just one beautiful thing about cutting on an Avid...you can't do that unless you are in Segment Mode and you select the clip first. It's not a willy-nilly drag & drop NLE... you have to know what you are doing and be in the correct mode to do it - It protects your work. Any Junior High Schooler can get their hands on a cracked copy of FCP and edit in 2 days. On an Avid (on the Mac), you need the Dongle and you have to be trained somehow by somebody or you have to actually READ A MANUAL and train yourself.

FCP is a great program, don't get me wrong - I use it everyday for Broadcast TV Commercial work, but Avid is a serious Editor's tool with the world famous interface. You jump on any level of Avid machine (except DS) and edit just like you are on the smallest version of the software... the interface is the same... and you can move projects from the smallest machiine / software all the way up to the DS. It just so happens Avid gear is EXTREMELY OVERPRICED and they constantly overlook their Mac User base (which is what pi$$es ME off).

Avid is an EDITOR'S TOOL... always was... always will be.

If you have any Avid questions, throw them up here or go to the Express Pro Mac forum on Avid.com and I will be glad to help you.

- Joey



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

<<Yeah, this is pretty much the same thing Avid users say when trying out FCP. :-)

Its human nature to hate what we Don't know and frustrating to learn a different way. Like Mark says, its what you grow up with.

That said, come to the August 24 lafcpug meeting and see Xpress Pro on OSX Tiger.>>

/agree

While my frustration is sincere, I know at the same time my gripes aren't at all valid. I really do want to learn Avid to some extent.

Also, I hope I didn't offend and Avid users with my conscientiously childish rant.

<< I can give you vegetables to throw at the screen.>>

Hehe no. Once I've ranted, it's all gone. My only grievance is my own lack of knowledge. Nobody else's fault but mine. Then again, maybe keep those veggies for when we discuss the FCP Media Manager with the FCP team. J/K .

Best,



- Justin Barham -

> Have you ever cut a long form project with thousands of cuts / stills /
> transitions in FCP and accidentally clicked & dragged your mouse in the
> timeline - moving a dozen clips to g_d knows where???

Joe has a point, but I'd offer the other side of the argument by saying that this kind of approach is precisely why I prefer Final Cut Pro. FCP is much more geared towards the computer age. I don't want my application to be "protecting" me from executing things by assuming I don't "really" want to do something. I want to pay for my own mistakes rather than the application assuming it's smarter than me. Besides, that's what undos are for. And besides, putting thousands of cuts on the same timeline is a huge pain in the neck anyway and, given the multi-timeline system of FCP, shouldn't be done.

It's true that FCP's accessibility means you get a lot of amateurs out there thinking they can edit. This past week I've been working on a film where the director shot on HD and somehow thought that she had to get a PC-based tech person to convert all the files to AVI...and used those to edit. It drove Final Cut Pro nuts. Plus, all her sound was MP3 or M4V, and I spent hours converting those back to AIFF before I could even touch up the editing because thanks to poor sound equipment, she never heard the "MP3 pop" in FCP.

But is that Final Cut Pro's fault? I don't think so. Accessibility is a good thing. Besides, any director/producer worth his/her salt can tell an amateur from a pro, sitting in front of the same editing station, or by looking at the reel.

At the end of the day, once again, it's about the person operating, not the tool.

Joe

The interface of any Avid version is the same...
wahooo ! Well in Fcp there is just one version

I had to "step back" on an Adrenaline recently, I felt like I was back to Middle Age

Actually you don't HAVE to use FCP by grabbing stuff on the timeline if you want to use it like an Avid you can.

<<< And besides, putting thousands of cuts on the same timeline is a huge pain in the neck anyway and, given the multi-timeline system of FCP, shouldn't be done. >>>

Derek,
That's a cop out. You know what I mean by "accidentally clicking & dragging clips"... doesn't have to be a 1000 clips... could be a dozen... could be ONE. An accidental "click & drag" can move a handful of clips quickly - even a few frames - and if you don't notice it and keep cutting... what a friggin' nightmare mess! I, myself, like to see all my edits in one timeline and it's never been a "huge pain in the neck".

<<<The interface of any Avid version is the same...
wahooo ! Well in Fcp there is just one version... I had to "step back" on an Adrenaline recently, I felt like I was back to Middle Age>>>

Francois,
I don't like Adrenalines - never did. Try editing Uncompressed HD with 4 layers of Particle FX, a Lower 3rd, and an imported 3D TIFF Sequence w/ alpha channels in FCP HD in real time. There's your "one version" - happy rendering, my friend. That's why Producers FINISH most very high end projects on a DS, FLAME, INFERNO, etc. = SPEED & QUALITY.

<<< Actually you don't HAVE to use FCP by grabbing stuff on the timeline if you want to use it like an Avid you can. >>>

Steve,
You missed my point completely. In FCP, you can ACCIDENTALLY CLICK & DRAG CLIPS IN YOUR TIMELINE and lose them (can you say "pull out your hair"??). You can't do this in the Avid unless you are in Segment Mode.

I think most of the Pros on this forum will agree with the fact that the Avid is a necessary evil in the biz and knowing it DOUBLES your work opportunities. Those that fight it... well... you should open your eyes a little bit and you might just make a fortune. There's a LOT MORE GIGS for Avid Editors than FCP editors out there and they pay more - that's just how it is. IMHO, there should be an Ultra-High End FCP HD station that is hardware accelerated like a Symphony & DS. Then maybe Producers would take FCP seriously as a FINISHING TOOL (not just an "Online Tool".

I am not bashing FCP at all, here, boyz... I want it to keep on getting better & better. I hope it knocks Avid off the top someday, but don't kid yourselves, here... AVID IS ON TOP FOR NOW. I use BOTH NLE'S EVERYDAY both at work and at home. I love FCP & Avid for different reasons. I love them together because it doubles my work opportunities. The competition of these 2 NLE's can only mean good things for us, the worker bee

Peace

- Joey



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

> I think most of the Pros on this forum will agree with the fact that the Avid is
> a necessary evil in the biz and knowing it DOUBLES your work opportunities.

I think you missed my point as well, Joe. I'm not slamming Avid at all. Hell, how many high-end features are cut on Final Cut Pro? We've got one solitary example so far. If I could afford Avid training and access for a prolonged period, I'd bite in a nanosecond. I also know that a one-week training course would do diddley jack; you don't learn an application by training on it for a week and then not touching it for six months.

> if you don't notice it and keep cutting... what a friggin' nightmare mess!

Sure, but that's human error, not a fault of the application. I happen to like the ability to move things around quickly. Doesn't mean you have to, of course. I had the exact opposite problem when I worked on Avid DV Xpress -- too many bars to jump over when trying to to do something simple like move an object. The two applications just don't work the same way, and anyone used to one will be slower, less accurate and more prone to ulcers on the other.

Avid's not a "necessary evil". It's just a tool. A tool which, in point of fact, has been around much longer than Final Cut and therefore has been improved and tinkered over a longer period of time. I'm sure lots of Avid editors would tag FCP as a "necessary evil" as well; I just spent two weeks training an Avid editor on FCP and I know he'd be far happier in front of an Avid. But he could still get the show done -- he didn't need to know the nitty-gritties of effects, filters and transitions in FCP. All he needed to know was basic audio controls, insert, overwrite, how to execute a dissolve. His lack of FCP experience was not much of a negative when they hired him, because he knew how to put together a show, even if he's on FCP. Likewise, my editing mentor's former assistant, a feature editor, works on Lightworks. She's definitely in the minority, but she could put a film together as well as an Avid editor.

I think this Avid-FCP debate would be more mutually beneficial to both camps if both sides see the issue for what it is, leave the heated exchanges out, and just see both sides of the story. Two tools, two capabilities, two sets of advantages and disadvantages.

>how many high-end features are cut on Final Cut Pro? We've got one solitary example so far.<

Well, besides Could Mountain, there is Intolerable Cruelty.

[www.apple.com]

Hey Derek,

Don't forget...this started as a stupid rant by a frustrated Avid hater. Just wanted to point out there are others on the other side of the fence that feel the same way about FCP.

I use & love them both

Peace

- Joey



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Joey,
I like both systems as well but didn't know if there would be any issues having Xpress with the mojo installed on the same box as FCP. Do you have them installed on the same box, and have you had any issues with them?
josh

<<how many high-end features are cut on Final Cut Pro? We've got one solitary example so far.>>

From Wikipedia:

(OK, only a few are "high-end"

Cold Mountain
Gunner Palace
Intolerable Cruelty
Napoleon Dynamite
Ocean's Eleven
Open Water
The Rules of Attraction
Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow
Corpse Bride

We can also add Jarhead.

<<Don't forget...this started as a stupid rant by a frustrated Avid hater.>>

Frustrated yes, but I don't know enough about Avid yet to really hate it. I'm sure if I had some Avid training I would feel a lot more positive about it.

It was probably a bad idea to start this thread in the first place. Can't we all just get along?



- Justin Barham -

<<Any Junior High Schooler can get their hands on a cracked copy of FCP and edit in 2 days. On an Avid (on the Mac), you need the Dongle and you have to be trained somehow by somebody or you have to actually READ A MANUAL and train yourself.>>

Errrr... That doesn't sound like a benefit to me. I thought the whole point of NLEs was to make editing easier. More creativity, more productivity, less fuss, less mess.

As far as the whole issue of Avid "protecting me from myself." I can see the point there. Personally however, I first learned to edit with film on a flatbed. I still have the mentally that I just want to grab segment X and put it at place Y. FCP allows me to do that w/o all the managing of film bits hanging on wires with lables etc. I suppose if I had a tape-to-tape background I wouldn't think like that, but I don't.



- Justin Barham -

As far as i'm concerned FCP is superior to avid (or soon will be) for a number of reasons,

1. it is way less expensive (in my opinion they are similar in quality).

2. FCP is easier to use i have used both not for an extended period but enough to know that FCP is easier.

3. again it's just my opinion but FCP looks way better than avid.


I predict that within five to ten years FCP will be the NLE System of choice for "Hollywood" editors, as in more movies will be cut with FCP than with Avid.



Sean

I'm predicting Sony Vegas will rule Hollywood and peace will break out in the Middle East

:-)

"Avid is an EDITOR'S TOOL... always was... always will be."

So how do you classify FCP? Obviously not an editor's tool...but an editor's _________?

"Any Junior High Schooler can get their hands on a cracked copy of FCP and edit in 2 days."

You make that sound like a bad thing. That just proves how much more efficient and user friendly FCP is over Avid.

"On an Avid (on the Mac), you need the Dongle and you have to be trained somehow by somebody or you have to actually READ A MANUAL and train yourself."

This seems like a mentally of keeping people out of this field. I run across many experienced older editors that don't like the idea of someone new being able to break in so much faster and easier these days. It seems that they want to make editing appear to be some deep dark secret skill that only certain people should be able to learn. And the exuberant prices of past Avids was certainly a gatekeeper for these folks.

Me? I'm somewhere in the middle. I'm old enough that I've edited enough on flatbed and linears and young enough to love NLE and FCP (and Avid too) and would never go back to linear or flatbed. Though I would love to have a 6 plate in my apartment as a nostalgia furniture/art piece.

-CHL

Sort of reminds me of the the heater debates from the upright moviola guys who maintained it was pointless to attempt to cut anything on a flatbed editor.

It was considered by the upright moviola guys much preferable to have hundreds of film cans & boxes with with dozens of clips inside wound up inside in small rolls held together with rubber bands, than to have the film on larger rolls on plastic cores.

The flatbed guys (KEM's Steenbecks"s etc.) that came on the scene later, argued that they could often find the clip faster by doing a by doing a fast rewind on the table than doing a search doing a search through the cans & boxes on the shelves.

Most editor using FCP never drag & drop anything. You want to take a bunch of clips from one spot on the timeline & stick them somewhere else, its Shift X & then move to the new spot Shift V. All the clips are in their new location.

If something totally bizarre happens then you know that you have a hidden in & out somewhere up or down the timeline or there is a clip somewhere out of view that is in a selected state. So after doing an undo Cmd Z you do Option X to get rid of any hidden in & out and Shift Cmd A to deselect any clip that may be hidden, then redo Shift V. This takes a second of two to do & you continue on with your cut.

In short any reasonably developed editing equipment will do a good job. It's just a tool. If the companies you work for require you to use an Avid then you hone your skills learning to use that tool to its maximum efficiency. I was a flatbed guy but I edited for many productions for companies that had upright moviolas. When the director came round to see how the cut was progressing I laced the film on the moviola & ran the cut for him. After he left I took the film off the moviola & did my cutting on a rewind bench. On my home system at the time I couldn't afford either a moviola or a flatbed & I learned that I could quicker this way than using either of the favored machines.

So use whatever works for you & when you're working at someone else's location you had better know how to work well with the equipment they have.

Dave

I jump back and forth between Avid and FCP from project to project and to be honest, both systems have their strengths and weaknesses.
Avid's back-end, the media management side is far superior to FCP especially when dealing with film. The fields are more easily customized, you only need to use 1 program...

Avid's edit buttons iunder the source and edit windows are much easier to see, brighter colors, larger icons, rows of icons under each window so it is very clear what is going to do what.

FCP's audio interface blows Avid's away. Memorizing your level automation with the click of a button, easy to read waveforms.

Way more affordable filters available for FCP...

I could go on, but...

I prefer editing on the Avid for the same reason that someone mentioned above: It's harder to make some of the simple mistakes you can make with your mouse in FCP and it's slicker, cleaner interface is faster to use.

Avid's biggest mistake - NOT SUPPORTING OSX and going PC all the way. I have to be honest, it crashes more now than back in the days cutting on a Mac Quadra. FCP 5 on OSX 10.4.2 is like a rock.

When all is said and done, however, both tools do the job incredibly well, and for the price, well, FCP has that one hands down. Now with the multi-cam features in FCP 5 and X-San working pretty well, all I can say is "Watch out Avid, FCP is heading into multi-cam episodic television."

That is exactly what i was saying FCP is gaining all of these features and is becoming so user friendly with xsan and the integration between apples pro programs, as i said before FCP will be the NLE of choice for hollywood within five to ten years, unless avid can keep up.



Sean



Post Edited (08-12-05 13:38)

> FCP 5 on OSX 10.4.2 is like a rock.

On some stations, maybe. On others, it's more like a huge round pebble covered with moss. Let's face it, every station has its own quirks -- consistency is not FCP's forte! My own FCP 4.5 system has been very stable, though.

I've heard from friends that Avid's support for Macs is non-existent, and that Avid tech support will tell Mac clients to basically *&^% off. If Avid's going to turn its nose up at Apple, then it shouldn't make Mac versions at all. Way to treat your customers, huh?

derekmok wrote:

> I've heard from friends that Avid's support for Macs is
> non-existent, and that Avid tech support will tell Mac clients
> to basically *&^% off. If Avid's going to turn its nose up at
> Apple, then it shouldn't make Mac versions at all. Way to
> treat your customers, huh?

Just not true. Avid is not turning its nose up at Macs. All Hollywood are Macs. You don't turn your nose up to that customer base - and there is plenty of Avid Tech support here. Certain AVID products are PC only but it just takes longer now to update for the Mac OS presumably becuase FCP is now in the mix.

That was hearsay from a friend of mine who worked for Apple as a beta tester. I sure hope you're right, Mike, because I'm a pretty staunch Mac user at this point. Even if (when) I take up the Avid, I'll still go with Macs.

It would also be very short sighted of Apple to turn its nose up at Avid as well, as Avid users buy a lot of Macs. One need only remember a few years ago when Avid supposedly announced that it was dropping support for the Mac. The industry went nuts and they are still feeling the pain of that mis-step.