Finishing on Film

We recently shot a feature film on 35 and had it transferred to dvcam. We will be editing the film on FCP 4.5, however we will be editing at 29.97. After the film is edited it will be output to film. I was looking for some help on the proper workflow to get this process right. The 24 to 30, back to 24 process seems to pose some serious issues. I have read a few tutorials that recommend using CinemaTools, but that seems to be very limiting. I was also told there is something simple that can be done with the settings of FCP? Any links or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

FYI:
FCP 4.5 HD
Dual 2.5 G5
OS 10.3.9
2.5 GB Ram

Hello... I had a similar problem way back and my huge thanks to LAFCPUG bec they helped me iron out most of the problems. I had to start again from scratch. The previous editor already finished the edit of the full-length feature in FCP using 29.97 and it was a thrice as hard to arrive at the most important thing: generate a proper film cut list for the negative cutter. So I started the whole process again from step 2- the reverse telecine.

First, a question: if you are outputting to film why would you like to edit in 29.97?

If you are outputting to film then you need to edit at 23.98 (or 24) fps to properly generate the much needed Film cut list for the negative cutting.

My workflow is:
1. Log & capture the telecined material in DVcam at 29.97 fps.

2. Reverse telecine the captured material in Cinema tools (this will convert the media files to 23.97 fps) and then create a database from the ALE or flex files' telecine transfer. This will help generate the key codes in the Film cut list.

3. Edit at 23.98 timeline in FCP.

4. Generate a film cut list.

Hope this info can help..good luck to you.

Brooms

Thanks so much for the detailed response. I'm the assistant editor, and I was told we are going to edit at 29.97. I was additionally asked to find the solution to this problem. However, editing at 24 makes sense to me. I just had one more question for you. From what I understand, cinema tools doesn't recognize anything above the V2 Track, and all transitions have to be on V1. Are these simply the limitations of working in FCP and finishing on film, or are there other options that might allow more flexibility? Thanks again.

Hi, Tyler...

I'm glad to return the favor I owe to this group by sharing whatever little knowlege I get from using FCP.

As to the all the tracks other than V1 and the transitions, here are my ideas:

1st step is to make a copy of your edited sequence and work on the copy for the next steps I will mention here.

For the film cut list I took out all the transitions and effects for every video track so that I would get the correct keycodes for the negative cutting.

To generate a film cut list for V2, you need to lay this track into a separate timeline. From there you can generate a separate film cut list and just give a note to the online editor that this particular cut list is for the V2 track to be composited into the V1 track cutlist.

Note down which V2 sequence corresponds to a particular V1 sequence. This means that aside from the film cut list, you would be giving special instructions to the on-line editor for the generation of the opticals for the effects, ditto with the transitions.

As to your question:
>>>Are these simply the limitations of working in FCP and finishing on film, or are there other options that might allow more flexibility? >>>

I've used Avid MC8000 before and the EDLs coulnd't recognize other tracks than V1 also. I'm not really sure with AV Film Composer but I guess it is one of the limitations of similar types of Non linear editing softwares for now.

Of course, anybody is welcome to correct me on whatever incorrect information I have... I know it will be a learning experience for me.

Hope you enjoy the edit as much as I did even if problems crop up now and then :-)

There seems to be little confusion going on here between cutting film negative and video online. The film lists generated by cinema tools are only of use to a film negative cutter. EDLs generated directly from FCP are only of use to an online video editor. Before planning how you are going to handle your project you need to know exactly how it is going to be finished. For example, if you're doing a traditional film finish, then your effects and transitions will be handled by a film optical house and you'll use Cinema Tools to generate an optical list that does look at video tracks above V1. Or you might decide to do your effects and transitions at a digital VFX company, in which case you'll generate separate EDLs for each effect that the VFX guys will use to scan the original negative. In either case, for a film finish, you'll get new negative for your effects that will have to be downconverted to DVcam and handled just like your dailies. You'll replace the FCP effects with finished film effects and only then will you hand over a cut list to the negative cutter. This list will by default be cuts only, V1 only. This is complicated stuff. I urge you to seek out the help of an experienced asistant or editor before going any further.

Brooms hit the nail on the head. DO NOT EDIT 29.97 IF YOU ARE FINISHING ON FILM. It will only complicate things.

Edit straight 24fps, or even 23.98 (so that you can output VHS screener dubs).

-shaman

Whoa, you guys are playing fast and loose with a lot of specific information despite the fact that Tyler really hasn't told us enough about his project. First of all, You don't simply decide whether to edit with 24 or 23.98 media. This is dictated by your workflow and is entirely dependent on how the film was shot.

Are you going to telecine film negative to 29.97 video, and import production audio directly into FCP and sync it yourself? Or are you going to have the telecine facility sync your sound to picture?

How was the audio recorded - 30fps, 29.97?

These and other factors will determine how you edit because the original relationship betwee film rate and audio rate must be maintained throughout the editing process. It is not a choice.

All I can say is that assuming you have a "typical" feature film production, you'll most likely use Cinema Tools to convert 29.97 to 23.98

<<You'll replace the FCP effects with finished film effects and only then will you hand over a cut list to the negative cutter.>>

Would this always apply to standard optical transitions as well? I was under the impression that fades and dissolves can be achieved when the negative reels are printed.



- Justin Barham -

That's certainly true. Standard transitions such as dissolves can be done during the printing process, instead of creating new opticals. There are pros and cons to each method.

Optical process is more expensive, but it gives you more creative flexibility in the types and lengths of dissolves, and you get to see exactly what your effect will look like in the cutting room before comitting to cut neg. There is ALWAYS some difference between what a dissolve looks like on video vs. film. There is a generation loss in going to optical neg from original neg, but with today's film stocks is negligible, just about every feature film you see these days uses this method.

The negative printing process requires the negative to be cut in AB rolls, and is more limiting. Most optical printers only have the ability to do a set number of standard dissolve lengths. It is cheaper this way, unless you change your mind. If so, you'll have to pay to get the entire reel reprinted just to change a dissolve.

Thanks Phil. That was very informative.

I'd love to move into the world of film someday so I'm always curious as to the details of how it's achieved.

Best,



- Justin Barham -