Edit out smoke? Help!

Howdy

I?m editing an HD 24p scene on FCP HD 4.5 that contains some unwanted smoke within the main action. The scene can not be reshot and I?m looking for a way to ?remove? the smoke. People have mentioned fixes involving exporting the scene into another application and repairing it frame by frame. I simply do not have the time to do this and I figure that since it is almost the year 2006, there is probably some kind of software that can help me. If anyone knows of something, please let me know.

Gee, doesn't Boris has a plug in called "Smoke Removal Plus Ver.4.3"?

:-)

Sorry to make light of your problem, but it's sounds to me like you're S.O.L. Depending on the extent of your smoke problem and how much it mixes with the main action, there's really nothing you can do. Even a frame by frame repair would likely not work. Your best solution is just to live with it and hope the narrative is strong enough that it doesn't bother people.

Andy

how heavy is the smoke?
can you give a little more description

This is the video equivalent of removing rain noise from the sound track. Both are too close to the desired material to separate them.

I'm going to ask one of the Inferno operators, I don't think even they can do that.

Koz

The smoke is light but can not afford to be visible at ALL. The deal is the sfx person used wicks to ignite some squibs and that is what causes the smoke? hindering a very important shot.

Can you cut to the shot at moment of the squibs going off so that the smoke is indistinguishable from the squib going off?

Andy

Andy-

That's not a bad idea but it takes away from the drama of the scene. What's going on is two girls were kidnapped and held hostage for a couple weeks. As they finally escape, and we think they are in the clear, they are shot by the people hunting their captures - totally unforseen.

All suggestions are appreciated, though.

It sounds like if you can't afford to reshoot it, you probably won't be able to afford to use FX to get it out either. Probably down to old-fashioned editing trickery. Cut away to a reaction just before the smoke is visible, then cut back to an alternate take (if it exists) where the girls collapse without visible smoke. Using point of view helps a great deal in situations like these, if you have the coverage. Put us into the perspective of one of the characters (ie. whose character arc does this accident affect? Is the main character one of the "cavalry"? One of the kidnappers? One of the girls?) to motivate an angle so we see the death from his/her point of view.

I do have the money to pay for software to fix the scene, I would be shocked if it wasn't cheaper than flying my actors back out and renting another camera and paying another crew and SFX person and food and hotel and transportation and insurance etc.

Re-editing the scene is an option but it would take away the dramatic punch (trust me) and would be an absolute last ditch effort. I would be willing to explore a few fix options, first.

Frame by frame painting (or rotoscoping) is very expensive. The longer the scene, the more $$$. I would like to see this clip. Can you post it somewhere & email me?

Which HD 24p resolution is the clip (what are the numbers)? How long is the smoke visible in the scene?

Is this like a big puff of smoke, or lines of smoke like a cigarette gives off? Removing widely spread smoke is pretty impossible, but if it's in a pretty straight line (like cigarette smoke from the end of a cigarette), it's possible.

I have done a bunch of frame painting / rig removal / rotoscoping. Let me look at the clip and I'll tell you how much I personally would charge for this.

- Joey



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Stand the problem on it's head.

COLORING the smoke is likely possible. Put MORE in in various places, and make the room look like a lot of the X-Files shots - moody and foreboding.

Then if you NEED the smoke from the hit - color it differently. That can all be done in post affordably. It won't be ideal, and it will drive YOU nuts, but don't tell your test audience, and I'll bet they never guess.

Ian

Do you have a clean plate. That is, at least a frame where the cam is locked and no actors are in the shot?

Kevin - yes I have a few seconds of footage w/o the actors.

Basically the shot is an ext. of a mine mill. The door opens, two girls walk out and a couple seconds later they are peppered with bullets

Ian -

What software would I use to add multiple colors to specific parts of the frame?

There are several hi end compositors that could do the work in HD quite well.
Shake, and Combustion come to mind - thought to get just the right texture, another plug in for the particle effects might save time. AE and RED might even be able to handle this.


I was handed a rain sound/no rain sound scene with some rain on the A side shots and no rain in the master, and a downpour on the b side reactions. ADDING rain was a hell of a lot easier than subtracting it.

I betting without seeing your footage this might be the same. There are some good particle system generators that do smoke and fog very realistically - they are "transparent" visually. even volumetric lighting effects can be added more easily than getting them OUT of a shot.

I'd see if Joey couldn't give you a better call on this once he's taken a look. I don't do that level of compositing. I just know that in situations where you've got lemons - you make lemonade. Joey can certainly tell you if this would be a no go idea.

It's still gonna cost you. But doing it via removal sounds like it'll cost - and still not get you where you want to be. Doing it with addition will certainly be faster and more affordable - and possibly save you a critical scene.

Joey - I'd be curious to hear your call once you've seen a frame or two

Ian

I'll play with the footage tonight and see if I can figure anything out. I'll be back on the board, tomorrow. Thanks for all your help.

If you have a clean plate, you can roto. You can maybe find a roto artist to do this fairly quickly. Not really a technique suggested for beginners.

KM

Ian,

I requested the clip for eval...he wants an estimate without me seeing the ftg... now wants to give it a go himself. I don't think he realizes there's no magic plug-in for "Smoke Removal". There's probably gonna be some intricate work involved.

Oh well, Good Luck FCP.user! If you change your mind, get me that clip (and a clean bkgd clip) so I can take a look.

- Joey



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

My 2 cents...

I have the feeling you're going to have to make a decision soon as to what bothers you more, the smoke in the shot, or whatever "solution" you end up with. Personally, I'm for reediting. Looking for some shot that will allow you to cut back to the squibbing a fraction of a second before they go off, so no one notices the smoke. A POV shot, or CU, or even a MED shot of the squibbing that you can zoom into a bit so that the smoke is off frame, then cut back to your main squib shot. Will it have all the drama you need/want? Maybe not. But will it bother you more to leave the smoke in?

Of course, there have been many instances where films have mistakes or incongruities, or missteps, sometimes glaring, that were purposely left in because it was simply the best emotional take. But maybe it won't work for you in this case.

Many times editing is about finding the best path to go down with what you have, not necessarily the one you would have liked to.

Again, just my .02

Andy

I'm with Andy. The fact is, if you're talking about a complex effect in the low-budget world, chances are whatever solution you come up with that's within your budget will not look good. I'm all for director's vision, but that vision comes with a price tag. You really need to consult with a good effects guy (personally, I'd definitely take up on Joe's offer and at least let him see what the clip is) and find out how much it's going to cost, and how it's going to look afterwards.

Obviously it depends on the actual image, which most of us haven't seen, but you might be surprised at how little the audience notices. The filmmakers have the benefit of foreknowledge, but the audience will often assume things to be intentional unless the film overall doesn't inspire its confidence. You should be able to "interrupt" the smoke so that it doesn't come out in a constant stream, and motivate the cutaway as an emotional build. There's never just one way to cut a scene. At least test it out with an audience. I've worked with enough directors (and observed the same in myself enough times) to know that filmmakers sometimes make up their mind -- "It has to be this!" "This won't work, I won't try it!". Then we swallow our tongues when it happens to work.

My role in this business since film school has always been a troubleshooter (Editing / FX / Sound Design)...I just seemed inherited a lot of bad shoots that needed fixin' that nobody else would touch. I don't know when it happened. I don't know when it will end. Unfortunately, DP's & Directors on a budget tend to "shoot everything - fix it in Post". Today's "film-like" technology allows Directors to roll a heck of a lot more HD tape without worrying about the $$$ of film stock.

I ALWAYS believe shooting things correctly FIRST, which is why I attend more shoots as an Art Director / FX Supervisor to help the DP set up shots that reduce the amount of "fixing" I will have to do in Post (you would be amazed how many DP's do not know how to light a simple greenscreen correctly).

Bottom line: FCP.user's DP should have seen the smoke, pointed it out, and suggested another take. With that said, I would go back out and shoot a few "B-ROLL" cutaways - like some Girl's POV's (steadicam or handheld rough Bolex-style) at the original location (won't need the girls for that) of the girls coming out the door and the guns opening up right at the camera and in a series of quick cuts - back & forth to the shooters POV (ala "Natural Born Killers" - using ftg treatment techniques (FluidFilm slomo, add grain, B & W, whatever). There's an endless combination of things to do here. Add 5:1 Surround Sound Sound Design of bullets whizzing past the camera to lift the scene.

How important is this scene? If it's the centerpiece of your film, bite the bullet (pun), reshoot it correctly and get everything you need. Don't try to "fix-a-flat".

- Joey



Post Edited (09-13-05 07:03)

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

It sounds like the best thing to do would be to mask the smoke. Since the scene is an ext in the winter, I figure I could safely get away with throwing in some fog and then snow over that. My only concern would be that the actual smoke and composited fog will mix and kill the transparency where they co-exist. But with enough snow activity, it might not be a problem. So my question is what software would work the best for adding such effects?

FLAME



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

<i>So my question is what software would work the best for adding such effects?</i>
Trapcode Particular
After Effects
Maya

[www.phoenixedit.com]#

Scroll down to the "Got Milk" Visual Effects Shot.
That is what they used, but they brought the shot into Maya to get some 3D depth to the snow and fog. Not simple.

Kevin Monahan

That did look good. Was the snow outside the window an after effect?

Not sure about the indoor shot. I rather doubt it. The long outdoor shot is what I am pointing out.

Kevin Monahan

Gotta know what you are doing with snow. If you do it wrong, it looks really fake. You don't need Maya to accomplish depth with the snow...just multiple Trapcode Particular (or DigiEffect Delerium "Snowstorm" applied with different settings / color correction in After Effects. I would split the layer (roto out the main bldg) and drop snow on the layer behind the bldg.

The snow falling outside the window was probably soap flakes shot live.

- Joey



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Hey...can't you post a still frame of the shot....I am curiouos to see -

My only issue with sending anyone a clip or posting a frame is that I have left my computer 'editing dedicated' to reduce issues and increase performance. What would be an easy to get a one frame clip to another computer and onto the web?

if you have a jump drive (keychain drive) put the image in there..if not burn it on a CD and bring it to a computer that has internet access -

send it to alex@vtvmedia.com -
I'll try to post it and give everyone a link to it

but give me at least 3 images...of the worst part, where you see the most smoke