HDV - YES or NO?

ok, im not getting all this workflow workaround crap im hearing about HDV...???

i was under the impression that a big new feature of FCP 5 was that it worked well with HDV? im hearing stuff about converting via HDVxDV - that sounds like no fun...

at upwards of $5k for an HDV camera there must be some good reason to choose this route, but most feedback im readin here in the forum is largely negative.

im still flummoxed...???

Any reason you need to go HD? What is your client base? Corporate video? Weddings? Commercials? Do any of are clients have the needs for HD? If not, then why do it?

HDV is workable in FCP 5...because there was a demand for it. But seriously, you couldn't pay me to work with the footage. I was offered a job once, but turned it down. I just don't want to deal with it. The lowest I will go is DVCPRO HD. Call me snobbish.

You cannot monitor HDV without a capture card...even if you route thru the camera or deck. DVCPRO HD you can monitor thru firewire thru the deck.

HDV is highly compressed mpeg-2. DVCPRO HD is compressed HD, but not nearly as much.

HDV can shoot 24P...but on the Sony when it does this you lose even more quality, and the JVC format isn't usable on MOST NLEs right now...but you cannot edit 24p.

That is my humble opinion. take it with a grain of salt.

now - there is some real life, "rubber meetin' the road" kinda feedback!
now shane, from a workflow/headache perspective why would you refuse so emphatically to work with HDV?

1. Highly compressed. Not the best quality. Other better options. The 4:2:0 color space doesn't impress me...in fact, it makes me believe it is harder to work with when color correcting or adding filters.

2. Working with it in FCP is not the smoothest. Capturing might be fine, although it does break up the footage after each and every single camera start/stop. I might not want that. Some have said they have had no problems, but a friend of mine is having a dickens of a time...

3. Outputting. Only Print to Video. And you have to wait while it encodes it for output. Generally takes about twice as long to encode as your project is in length. And that also means no outputting to strict timecode protocols like the the hour hitting at 1;00;00;00, bars at 58;30 and all that.

4. Monitoring requires an HD card. Ah...if you are working with HD you should get one of these anywho. I plan on getting a card in the near future, but like the option of being able to view thru firewire thru a deck and to a monitor like DVCPRO HD allows.

5. The 24p mode...or Cine24 setting...actually REDUCES the quality of the footage. When I heard that the director already bought the camera and shot half of the film with it...without even THINKING about post (big no no)...and that ALL of it was shot with the Cine24 setting...AND THEY WANTED TO BLOW UP AND MAKE A FILM PRINT...I said "no thank you."

6. Did I mention the 4:2:0 colorspace?

to be ugly honest, im not that concerned with 4:2:0 colorspace (probably due largely to ignorance - partly mine, partly my clients). im not working on films. im here in houston where the biggest chunks of work are industrial 50%, legal 20%, training 15%, commercial 10%, and film/entertainment 5%(if even that). one of the big things here is "keeping up with the joneses". most work (aside from broadcast) is delivered on DVD. ive seen a good bit of "proper HD" varicam and cinealta stuff done for our areas big oil and gas and banking clients downconverted to SD for projection and dvd and to be honest, the varicam looked a bit messy, but the cinealta still looked pretty good. however, from what ive seen, a well shot dv source at 24p would look more or less as good

i have heard some buzz, and some requests for HDV work and figured if im going to drop $4k for an XL2, why not drop $4.7 for a Z1U??? but what ive heard more of than anything else here are a bunch of workflow issues... i be damned if im going to sit and wait for (or manually, clip-by-clip) convert all my source HDV footage to DV via HDVxDV!!!!! that just seems like work for the sake of work... for a format that im considering "interim" at best

based on input im getting here, mainly from you and graeme. it seems that the XL2 is a better option and to just wait until the playback and distribution options become more available for TRUE HD.

am i on the right thinking path here?

I've been using HDV for bodyboarding stuff and I love it. I know there's not much of a need for it, but I was in the need for a new camera, as I had a pretty used VX2000, and I like the look of native 16:9 and I think even HDV downconverted blows away anything I ever shot on the VX2000. I'm still trying to learn how to compress it well for the web. Here's a little clip I've been messing around with, using the "Queer Eye" tutorial on one of the tutorials on this site. Note this is not the final product, just a test of some editing and compressing HDV..

[www.stokedonlife.com]

XL2 or DVX-100a. Both are very nice cameras.

That is what I'd do in your situation.

at the end of the day i think the biggest fowl in the video industry is to put image quality on a higher priority than story or narrative. not to say that one is infinitely more important than the other...

BUT

from my experience there are so may people making videos these days just becasue they can afford the gear that there is a serious dearth of compelling content. my point in the few threads ive instigated about HDV is to see if this technology can be as much an end result benefit as it is a workflow roadblock.

what im hearing is, unless you just want to (kind of) say you work in HD. it isnt really worth it.

well then ryan goes and posts one of the cleanest (aside from one very bad set of few frames) web videos ive ever seen! - damn, there goes the argument?!?!?!?

i grabbed a frame and posted to my server:

[understandinc.com]

the detail is clean as HELL!

ryan, from a capture, edit, monitor standpoint - how was your workflow?

I find it super easy to use. I connect FX1 via firewire to dual 2.0 g5 with fcp5 suite. capture using firewire and edit as i would dv, but just set the setting for HDV in fcp. I only have my 23" apple cinema display to edit on, no other preview monitors or decks for hdv editing anyway. i havent had any problems with hdv since fcp5, i used both lumiere hd and hdvxdv before, which worked, but were both very time consuming. the worst part about hdv is the export times, whether youre compressing for web or dvd or self contained, it takes forever!!..well at least on a near 2 year old g5 dual 2.0ghz with 4gb of ram.

here is another still grab of ryans video:

[understandinc.com]

i have yet to se ANY web based video as clean as this. ryan how and with what did you compress this?

I was messing with H.264 for a while, but that clip is just Sorenson 3 straight out of fcp... let me find what the actual settings were. i wrote them down on a piece of paper and now i cant find it!!!

ok ryan. what happens when you take your boarding timeline, downconvert and export it out to a 4:3 SD dvd?

if you can do that id gladly pay for overnight shipping if youd shoot me one

I am very glad to hear a good review and a success story. And that is one good image. I know that many people have no problems with this format. I guess I am biased due to a friends horror story, the project that I was approached with, and stuff that I have read.

HAHA this is funny. I had no intentions on putting this on dvd as it was just a little web edit for the people who put on the contest at that wave house in san diego. Yeah ill make one and send it to you, email me, ryan@stokedonlife.com. Thanks haha

"2. Working with it in FCP is not the smoothest. Capturing might be fine,
although it does break up the footage after each and every single camera
start/stop. I might not want that. "

This is a switchable option in the current version.

As far as the Canon goes. It looks like they spray painted an XL2. The price tag is heavy even with the bells and whistles you get and may never use. 1080/24p is not a supported format in FCP. I wonder what FireWire protocol it uses. If it's still stuck in Basic with its crappy audio sampling issues I wouldn't buy it, and I wouldn't recommend a Canon camera to anyone until they fix these fundamental issues.



All the best,

Tom

HDV is still in it's infancy. Sony is the only camera that takes it seriously and then not too seriously. MPEG-2 is the future of digital television as I understand it and that is what goes to DVD movies today and for a short while more.

WHY HDV? Because it is going to happen fast that the cost of a comsumer television with HDMI connectors and HD over cable will blow SD out of the box for conusumer use. THe consumer is KING and what the king wants - it gets.

It is just that - right Now - the KING doesn't know it yet.

So Ryan,

Your not using a second external monitor to work with? No other special HD cards? That would make it tons easier to work with, but then knowing exactly what the final product would look like might be a little off.

Great looking stuff BTW. Are you located in San Diego? just got my Z1 and love the image quality and the camera, but the new decklink card monies haven't shown up yet. I might do some editing as you have to see how it turns out without the external monitoring.

Kevin

I imagine that Lens that comes with the Canon HV bumps the price up a bit. Coupled with HD-SDI. They may find themselves in a price war down the line but for now it looks like a pretty sweet cam for Canon fans. Will see how this Canon and FCP get along. FCP gets along just fine with the XL2

Ryan, I have to do compression on a daily basis and I have to say that is incredible. Please do share your settings ;-)

Steve

Heck, why not? Consider it another tool in your bag-o-tricks...hey remember the Fisher-Price Pixel Vision? It still has a place.

Best,
Chet Simmons
Las Vegas

I dont have any external monitors or hd cards, I am just a college student who makes bodyboarding videos and occasional commercials and weddings and high school football games to pay the bills. I was thinking about the black magic card, the cheaper one, and a small hdtv of some type. any suggestions? I am seriously on a budget because I am saving money to go to Hawaii in January for 3 weeks to film at pipeline. On a side note, my buddy just got an HC1 and a custom waterhousing, so I am VERY curious to see how the water footage turns out, considering its HDV but CMOS as opposed to CCD. Also, I helped him get it, $1200 on ebay brand new, and it wasnt a scam!!! Couldnt turn down a deal like that, since we needed a cheap small solution to get water footage without having a bulky setup like the fx1 housings ive seen. When filming out at places like pipeline, you want the smallest setup possible or it could mean your life.

That video is nice, Ryan. If that's Sorenson compressed ftg straight out of the camera, I can imagine what the full rez stuff looks like on a plasma screen. Just for S & G's, I Googled the FX1 and found a brand new one for less than $2,000...amazing.

The release of the Canon XL H1 is going to turn the HDV market on it's ear. NOBODY capturing HDV images has Uncompressed HD output...NOBODY. Everyone that uses XL1s & XL2s will buy this camera.

Tom mentioned a "steep price tag", but I haven't been able to find a price...I am guessing around $4500 - which is still ridiculously affordable for the product it will turn out.

It's a great time to be in this business

- Joey



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

hey joey, check this link:

[www.macworld.com]

MSRP $8,900

Price is $8999 Joe. With Lens

:-(

Holy Hemorroids, Batman...OUCH! That's not gonna hurt the Sony sales any, I'll tell you that much.

Thanx



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

yeah joey, kinda puts a damper on your previous positivity, right?!

but keep in mind, it's a MSRP (which very little ever actually sells for) and it's a pre-release price. i'd bank on it hitting streets at about $6.5k