Quicktime in Avid

Does anyone have experience with using quicktime files in Avid ? I mean taking a bunch of media that's been digitized for FCP and importing it into Avid. A local post facility is telling me that it's not a good thing to do but according to this document, there should be no problem:
[www.avid.com]

I would much appreciate any comments. I have a fairly major decision hanging on this.

Mike

There are two ways to add QuickTime media to your project:

1) AMA, which links directly to the QuickTime media files.

2) Importing (or Fast Importing for supported formats), which creates new MXF media files.

AMA isn't the most reliable workflow. It can cause performance and stability problems with large projects, and several functions such as creating AAFs and Digital Cuts aren't available for AMA media. However, for smaller projects where the codec is not long GOP (e.g. H.264) you can probably get away with it.

If you want a rock-solid Avid experience, use DNxHD media in an MXF wrapper. You can get this by importing the QuickTime files or transcoding AMA clips.

My software:
Pro Maintenance Tools - Tools to keep Final Cut Studio, Final Cut Pro X, Avid Media Composer and Adobe Premiere Pro running smoothly and fix problems when they arise
Pro Media Tools - Edit QuickTime chapters and metadata, detect gamma shifts, edit markers, watch renders and more
More tools...

Many thanks for that, Jon. Your advice is always invaluable.

Interesting to hear that AMA can cause problems. But it sounds as though the transcoding option is pretty reliable.

I was trying to keep my question as brief as possible, but perhaps I should explain it in a bit more detail.

I'm about to start on a job which will involve 100's of hours of SD archive material coming off tape (Betacam and Betacam SP). Obviously the cost of digitising and LTO backup will be considerable. It's very likely that this same media will need to be accessed again in the future for other projects, so ideally it should be in a future-proofed format.

I have the choice of going with either MC5.5 or FCP7. The post facility where I'll be working are pretty adamant that as FCP is EOL, I should work in MC5.5. But I have some trepidation at the prospect. I worked on Avids for about six years up until 2008 when I made the switch to FCP. In all that time, I never felt myself to be on top of the software. Somehow, it was always a struggle. When I first touched FCP, it was like coming home.

Loren Miller put it well a few days ago in this post:
[www.lafcpug.org]
"There's an ease and friendliness in FCP7 editing which neither Premiere Pro nor Avid achieves, in my view. And I trained in Avid, I'm fond of it, and I still use it for some clients. There's just something mellower and less severe and less visually cluttered."

What I'm thinking is that if Avid can cope with QT with no problems, then I can make the decision to go with FCP for this job and still be confident that the media will be totally usable in future without having to go back to the archive tapes.

This will be a long job - probably 10-12 months - and I'm nervous at the prospect of locking myself into a system I've never been comfortable with. Bit of an old dog really, I suppose...

Mike

Hey Jon, what about the 3rd option in MC6- capturing as ProRes and consolidating to ProRes MXFs?



www.strypesinpost.com

Mike.

Although there has been a "big talk" about decamping to Avid, we are still cutting on FCP7. In fact until MC6 has settled properly (at least 6 months to a year) only a handful of people I know bought it and mostly just to keep up-to-date with the interface for training.

Personally I would go FCP7 - it will be used and supported by the likes of Jon and LAFCPUG for many years - we still get FCP5 and 6 questions!

There is certainly no reason to go Avid MC5.5 over FCP7 and 100 reasons you should stay FCP7 for now. The ease of use and the familiar workflow are the first two. MC6 might be fun to try - but like FCPX I'm not ready to risk large projects on them just yet.

If you want a real qualifier - most BBC programmes (one of which I am currently working on) are using and will continue to use FCP7 for the foreseeable future as people start to carefully make transitions to the next generation NLEs - MC6, CS6 and even FCPX despite the animosity is really a contender but needs the broadcast video card support and multi-cam before post-houses seriously implement it.

In cases where you need to make guarantees - its a case of "better the devil you know".



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

I agree with Ben to a certain degree. The market I am in is unlike LA or where Walter Biscardi is, and finding a good pool of competent Avid editors is a little bit tricky. The editors who have worked on Avid are usually the older guys and many of them have not touched Avid for a good number of years. So when some houses need to acquire new machines, they look at the pool of editors with the skill set, and most of them are familiar with FCP, so they acquire FCP licenses wherever they can, which at the moment, doesn't seem to be a huge problem yet.

Ideologically, I do not like to practice and acquire skills on softwares that are already dead, and the current defacto leader for long form editorial in the absence of FCP, is Avid. So carrying on with FCP, is a dead end, but who knows what tomorrow will bring? Will it be Avid, Premiere or Lightworks? The NLE market is in a transitional phase.



www.strypesinpost.com

Personally I agree with these guys. I'm still cutting on FCP7 wherever possible, but learning the other programs as I go for the future. If you can stay on FCP7, and that's where you're happy, then why not? On the other hand, there's no faster or better way to learn a new program than by being forced to work on it every day, producing real world results.

strypes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Jon, what about the 3rd option in MC6-
> capturing as ProRes and consolidating to ProRes
> MXFs?

This is a new feature in Media Composer 6 that I haven't had a chance to test yet so I can't speak for how well it works. I'd imagine it's more reliable than AMA though.

Also, just for the record, I'm just about to start a big new FCP 7 project. I know lots of people that aren't planning to switch yet and many of my customers are still adding FCP 7 systems to their networks.

My software:
Pro Maintenance Tools - Tools to keep Final Cut Studio, Final Cut Pro X, Avid Media Composer and Adobe Premiere Pro running smoothly and fix problems when they arise
Pro Media Tools - Edit QuickTime chapters and metadata, detect gamma shifts, edit markers, watch renders and more
More tools...

Fascinating stuff. And very reassuring. Many, many thanks. For me, living in NZ, asking for advice on this forum is a bit like asking the fairies for help - I ask a question, go to bed and then in the morning I wake up to find my problem solved !

But seriously - a real eye-opener, Ben, to hear your viewpoints and that the Beeb is staying with FCP for the forseeable future. That says a lot.

Interesting, strypes that you mention Lightworks. It doesn't seem to get talked about all that much around here. Hopefully the Mac version won't be too far away.

Don't forget, Jude, that I've done six years working exclusively on Avid - prior to that, six years on the old Fast Video Machine - so it's not exactly a matter of learning a new programme. More a matter of facing up to an old sparring partner.

And Jon, fascinating to hear that you are staying with FCP for a new project.

My mind is 90% made up. The 10% question mark is due to the fact that the facility where I'll be working is solidly Avid from management to machine room. Could be a bit like being a protestant at the Vatican.

Then again - if I strike technical problems, I guess I could always come back here and ask the fairies...

Mike

Elves!

Jeez - you'd think people would get the difference! LAFCPUG Elves! - (You might be confusing us with Creative Cow Fairies ).


But yes you can always come ask here for all your NLE needs!

Don't be afraid to ask - our forums are one of the reasons why FCP is where it is - we are the support Apple (and Avid - until relatively recently) never provided!


On another subject...

...no relation to Paul by any chance?



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Oh, blimey ! How could I have been so stupid ? Perhaps it's got something to do with my big, hairy feet ? (Compulsory for all NZ'ers these days you know.)

I do have a nephew called Paul, but he's not the one you're thinking of. If it's any help though - Eric Blair served under my grandfather in Burma...

Big Harry Feetsies? Wots Big Hary Feetsies Prrrecious?



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

If they're running ISIS at the facility it shouldn't be too hard to fit in. I was on a FCP7 rig attached to an ISIS just recently, and it was all fine.

I don't think they have ISIS. I understand I'll have my own dedicated RAID.

BTW - I presume that digitizing the old betacam as prores422 is the best way to go ? The archive will be intercut with (yet to be shot) HD footage. The format for the new footage has not yet been decided, but I imagine it will be XDCAM EX.

At this point, I do everything I can in ProRes. It's a lovely codec. Not sure about it going in to the future, and I'm sure there will be heaps of opinions on this, but given it's an Apple codec, I wonder if the point will come where people would need to purchase FCPX to get it, and baulk at doing that if they are cutting on another platform, and something else would come along to replace it.

Anyway, like I said, right now it's a good codec.

Been, there's lots of Premiere Pro seats installed at the BBC. Has been for the last couple of years: [www.adobe.com]

Quote

Been, there's lots of Premiere Pro seats installed at the BBC. Has been for the last couple of years:

Yes Premiere Pro is making headway on the Desktops of the offices but not yet used primarily for editing programmes - although it is available (as is Avid) in certain Media Villages. Hell I even think we still have a few LightWorks floating around! The Adobe CS suite is invaluable imho even if you cut on Avid or FCP - certainly I feel short changed if I don't have access to Adobe Media Encoder, AE, PS or AI.

Quote

I presume that digitizing the old betacam as prores422 is the best way to go

If you have SD and you are delivering HD and if you have an AJA, Blackmagic or Matrox card with Hardware Upscaler then I'd recommend upscaling all your footage to ProRes 422 1080i50 HD on ingest so you don't have to deal with upscaling later. We are doing this on the BBC series I'm currently working on and is a big timesaver storage is cheap and you'll only end up wasting RAID space rendering the the SD to HD later!

I'd also recommend working on a ProRes 422 timeline in FCP regardless of using XDCAM EX elsewhere.



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Ben King Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd recommend upscaling all
> your footage to ProRes 422 1080i50 HD on ingest

Hmmm. Not sure I agree. I've done a fair bit of SD in HD timelines and I've never yet seen a shot I didn't have to individually position in order to get the best framing within the 16:9 crop. Surely upscaling on ingest would mean applying a generic 16:9 crop and remove the ability to re-position ? FCP usually seems to do an acceptable job of rendering the rescaled SD. But it also depends on the ratio of SD to HD in the final cut.

> I'd also recommend working on a ProRes 422
> timeline in FCP regardless of using XDCAM EX
> elsewhere.

Yes. I always do.

Just to return to my original dilemma - I've been trying to figure out why the post facility is so adamant that I should go with Avid. And I've realised that their online/ grading suite is Avid based - which means that anything coming out of FCP is a problem for them in that final stage. Presumably the only way they could work with it would be to run the project(s) through Automatic Duck ?

Ah now we get to the nub - if its 4:3 then make a judgement call but the hardware upscaling on the cards is realtime on ingest and does a better job than FCP or Avid's software upscaling (without an HD plugin).

I would never get the 4:3 footage cropped anyway - instead get either a full frame stretch and then deal with aspect ratio correction in software or get 4:3 pillar box on 16:9 with black borders left and right. Or if you are happy to use it SD then just continue that way - ultimately if its 4:3 on a 16:9 timeline you might have to render when re-racking to position it anyway if you upscale to HD.

Even going Avid to Avid online is not necessarily easy - what versions of Avid are they using for offline/online? MC, DS or Symphony?

As to how easy it is to go from FCP to Avid - it depends greatly on what level of offline you will produce - do you fine-cut sans effects? Or do you like to do lots of motion transformations and use loads of FCP-centric plugins/FX on your edits?

Remember Automatic Duck is free now! [www.automaticduck.com]

Ultimately if you work better and faster under FCP then you'll get a better product even if they have to do some manual tweaking of FX when onlining in Avid.



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

I use very little in the way of FX or plugins and I can't see much need for motion transformations on this job - so the timelines will be very straightforward...

But in the meantime, I think the question has been resolved. I will be on FCP. And I'm very happy about that.

Thanks everyone for the advice and encouragement. If nothing else, it's been fascinating to learn that FCP remains so resilient.

Mike