Clips Disappear from Sequences

We've had this occur on several systems here, where clips in a particular sequence disappear, vanish, are no longer there. Happens on 10.3.3, 10.3.4, 10.3.3 in FCP 4.5 on 3 different G5 2.0 DP systems, different projects with different media. Note: this is not the well known DISAPPEARING MEDIA bug, but just as bad.

We are seriously contemplating a switch to Avids. Bug or no, an editing business built on software that completely deletes edit decisions off a timeline is a pretty serious issue. There are two classifications of moral mistakes: errors and to err. We think this is the later.

Nonetheless, I'll describe the problem. Let's hope it's just isolated to us and not you.

We've digitized a Varicam originated feature via SDI @ 59.94 using Blackmagic's HD card w/ current drivers for 8bit YUV codec. This is a Blackmagic easy setup that ships with the card. Sequence works fine & video goes out the card via HDSDI fine.

The sequence was created from a media managed 23.98fps Apple DVCPRO HD set up. I think the set up is called DVCPROHD 720p 24, a firewire capture setup. This sequence had the original feature captured, edited, and was media managed to an offline, trimmed sequence with identical settings. We could NOT media manage this sequence for a HD SDI 59.94 1280 x 720 sequence because FCP saw a frame-rate conflict and would not let us. So, we media managed it properly to a sequence of the same ilk, DVCPROHD 720P 24.

Then, we changed the easy set up to Blackmagic SDI-HD @ 59.94 which is the only 24p/23.98 SDI setting available for capturing this material. We captured the clips, everything fine. Clips were in the old DVCPROHD sequence. We copied the clips and pasted them into a proper Blackmagic HDSDI 59.94 sequence. FCP missed capturing some clips because of speed changes, but that's to be expected!

After a bit of adjusting, and no rendering, the sequence was fine. Played fine, etc. Saved many times. Autosaved. Closed the project once and reopened, no problem. Saved a project, compressed it to a zip file, uploaded to internet, archived on other machines, saved a version with a new name every 10 minutes, also duplicated the sequence in question within each project, also copied the clips in the sequence to a new sequence. Saved. Saved.

Then quit FCP. Reopened the project to find this 59.94 sequence has many clips in the timeline missing. Can't find any pattern as to why. Different clips are missing each time project is opened and closed.

Now, we thought opening an Autosave would help: no. They are respectively identical in that all of the autosaves, backups as described above are MISSING the same clips. All of the projects. Even moving the project to another machine that doesn't have any connection to the media, all of the projects are missing the same clips.

What is odd is that in the first instance of this, we had SAVED a project, closed it, then reopened it and this didn't happen. Also, we had opened a previous version of a project and it was just fine too. BUT when quitting FCP 4.5, and then opening the project, the disappearing clips w/in the sequence phenomenon happened universally to EACH and EVERY project associated with the media.

This is what caused us to save the project off the key machine, unrelated to media, and open it unrelated to media. Problem still happens.

________

Don't mean to make this a dissertation, but just trying to be thorough.

This exact phenomenon of clips vanishing from a particular sequence has happened on all 3 of our systems. It has occured on very standard 29.97 DV projects and 23.98 DV projects, and SD projects.

________

What we tried to do about it? The usual things, like repair permissions, toss FCP preferences, try the project on other systems, got rid of everything in the browser except for the final sequence and saved, made a totally new project file and manually moved the final sequence it and saved, exported the .xml and imported them in, created an offline project through media manager (not deleting unused media), created copies of the sequence inside the browser, renamed the project, zipped/stuffed the project after a save, closed/reopened/renamed the project.

Nothing has worked.

Bug or no, an editing business built on software that completely deletes edit decisions off a timeline is a pretty serious issue. If we're not able to find an adequate resolution, we're seriously contemplating a switch to either Avids or something more stable that won't fail on a deadline.

Serious inquiries about this behaviour will be posted to several FCP forums, so please forgive the double posting.

If there is a fix to this issue, please let us know!

Thanks for listening.

David Alexander
Post Supervisor
Solventdreams, LLC
323.906.9700

David,

I had the same problem last year. I had to copy and paste sequences that were cut 29.97, into timelimes that were 23.98. I discovered, like you did, that after exiting the software and restarting, whole clips were gone from the timeline.

Here's the problem - you need to clean up the edit before saving and exiting. If you tab through the sequence, you will see many 'phoney edits.' That is, the curser will stop one frame before the actual cut. It's a random thing and it happens to maybe 10% of the edits, but you need to do a one frame lift and then extend the shot back to the edit point to clean it up.

This is not a FCP bug or problem, it's a ramification of editing in one timebase and then pasting into another timebase. I wish FCP handled it better, but it doesn't. Some editorial intervention is needed to remedy this.

All told, it takes about 15 minutes to fix a 15 minute sequence, but you MUST fix everything before you exit the software. Once you exit, anything you haven't repaired will be gone.

Hope this helps.

Mitch

Thanks very much, Mitch. That info is exactly what we're looking for.

David,

No problem. To be more specific, as I recall, I found both one frame gaps and 'phoney edits.' Both situations need to be fixed by marking in/out around the area in question, lift out the section and then extend back to the cut.

I thinik this effected both video tracks and audio tracks.

Wow. This happens when cutting 29.97 material into a 24P project? And has nothing to do with first parking at a snap edit point? Interesting.

I take it the 29.97 must be rendered?

- Loren
Today's FCP HD 4.5 keytip:
Enable/Disable "global" Linking: Shift-L.
Override any enabled link: press Option, then click clip segment.

The FCP HD KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central
www.neotrondesign.com

Yes, it does happen. We lost an entire job and jeapordized our client's deadline because this problem.

No, there's no rendering involved. Its essentially a media managed sequence, in which during the media manage, you select a different frame rate, which FCP can't cope with..

I'm sorry you have been through a nasty little time. It reminds me...

I worked one Media-Managed 24P feature last year from 29.97 downconverts that had been originally cut in FCP3 and my job was to restore the cut in FCP4 for recutting. In this case, no mixing of video rates. I did have nasty broken TOD code sources, which was totally unnecessary for a feature and made the batch redidge next to impossible. What was your timecode like?

In restoring, I ended with occasional gaps, missing clips, misplaced clips and no pattern to the problem-- it would perodically display a messed up area of the show, requiring hand repair. Apple wanted a typical source tape but the producer blew town before I could dupe one.

You should contact the FCP team about this, they take it seriously.

- Loren
Today's FCP HD 4.5 keytip:
Enable/Disable "global" Linking: Shift-L.
Override any enabled link: press Option, then click clip segment.

The FCP HD KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central
www.neotrondesign.com

Loren,

In my case it happended after the following circumstances:

1] Film was telecined to video
2] I edited 29.97 using FCP 3
3] I upgraded to FCP 4
4] I copy and pasted the 29.97 sequences into 23.98 timelines
5] I reversed telecined all the 29.97 media to 23.98 using Cinema Tools
6] Everything linked up perfectly and I save the project and exited
7] Upon restarting the program, dozens of clips were missing from the sequence

I repeateded the scenario and found that copying and pasting 29.97 media into a 23.98 timeline and then reversing the telecine to create 23.98 media is problamatic. The resulting sequence has many one frame gaps and invisible edit points that cause the clips to disappear after relaunching. (Obviously due to 29.97/23.98 translations.)

I was able to easily repair everthing once I understood the nature of the problem. (see my earlier post)

I'm not sure what these other scenarios are all about - sounds similar if they are using MM to alter the timebase of the media.

Mitch

[The resulting sequence has many one frame gaps and
invisible edit points that cause the clips to disappear after relaunching.
(Obviously due to 29.97/23.98 translations.)]

That's interesting, but somehting I've not seen and actually *not* obvious. The whole point of 23.976 to 29.97 is that this is a better downconvert pairing mathermatically.

Very puzzling, the various behaviors and results. Immediately I worry about mixing video rates-- I've always avoided it. But other things are happening when MM is applied. I wish i knew more to help.

- Loren
Today's FCP HD 4.5 keytip:
Cycle your bin views with Shift-H!

The FCP HD KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at discount at the LAFCPUG Store!

Hi Mitch&Co

I don´t know if this is a related problem or not? Would be interested in your opinon. Can not test this for myself until Monday.

First off the system, Dual 2.0Ghz G5, 2GB ram, 160GB system hard drive, 1 Terabyte video hard drive and an AJA Io digital video interface, FCP 4.5, and we've being using OS X 10.3.4, OS X 10.3.5 and OS X 10.3.6

Have tried trashing preferences, repairing video disk permissions, doing a safe start and repairing permissions for the boot disk, have tried making new sequences etc. A la Larry Jordan from LAFCPUG. And reinstalling everything from scratch.

CLIPS GO MISSING FOR NO APPARENT REASON. They simply disappear from one moment to the next. Some times they even disappear in the time line but are still to be seen in the viewer whilst playing the timeline. Have you or others experienced this strange phenomenon in relation to "your clips disappearing from sequence problem."

This happens typically whilst trying to move highlighted blocks of clips around in the timeline or for that matter whilst using the undo function in FCP. Towards the end of one such disastrous editing session there seemed to be no relationship between the edit points in the timeline and the edits which we saw in the viewer and all of this with a tight deadline!

Would be very greatfull for feedback!

thanks
Paul

I'm in the UK so I'm PAL - the problem isn't just down to timebase changes. I found the forum while trying to find an answer to clips disappearing from the timeline - as previous post, they were cut in, then not there, although sometimes playing in the canvas. I'm working DV on a G4 laptop, FCP 4.5, OSX10.3.6. In my case, the issue seems to be related to using the undo function - 2 different projects, media on different disks.

One way to clean things up temporarily seems to be to drag over the affected area and delete using the backsace key. Just marking in-out and deleting doesn't work. This so far has cleared some of the spurious files. Repeat until everything seems to be gone - the problem also seems to have multiple clips occupying the same space in the timeline even though none are showing. I'm still looking for a quicker, cheaper solution than getting AVID!

"One way to clean things up temporarily seems to be to drag over the affected area and delete using the backsace key. Just marking in-out and deleting doesn't work. This so far has cleared some of the spurious files. Repeat until everything seems to be gone - the problem also seems to have multiple clips occupying the same space in the timeline even though none are showing. "

I had this problem with disappearing segments in the timeline also. Same timebase the entire time. Video plays in the canvas but appears in the timeline as offline. Your first sentence states, "One way to clean things up temporarily seems to be to drag over the affected area and delete using the backsace key."

Then what do you do? Paste it back in?

Thanks,
Jeff

"Video plays in the canvas but appears in the timeline as offline"

this is a different problem, and can be fixed by trashing your Thumbnail Cache
~ / Documents /FCP Documents / Thuumbnail Cache

nick