New Mac for FCS Editing - Advice Please

OK the time has come for me to take this stuff seriously. I'm going to invest in a new system dedicated to post production and FCS. Although I'm currently editing DV, my intention is to move to HDV in due course.

The obvious choice (only choice?) is a Quad 2.5GHz I guess, but I'd like to have some advice on configuration. Money is going to be a serious initial limiter here, so I'll need to allow for future memory expansion, additional HDD, etc. What I'd like to understand is the minimum config I should go for, and where to spend the money up-front.

I am thinking at least two internal 500gig HDD, and as much memory as I can afford (but as memory still seems so expensive, I'm hoping that a couple of gig non ECC will be ok to start with)

Also I am assuming that as I'm not using this as a 3D gaming device, a basic graphics card would be OK (eg the NVIDIA GeForce 6600 256MB SDRAM). My thinking is that post production is more about BUS speed, HDD speed and Ram. More about moving data rather than graphics rendering etc - but I'm open to advice here. The NVIDIA GeForce 7800 GT 256MB SDRAM is only a little more expensive, but the QUDRO FX is a big cost leap.

BTW I'll be capturing DV and later HDV via firewire, so I don't belive I need a fancy capture card, although again I'm a dummy here especially when it comes to HDV.

With the above config I'm around US$5k (Sing $ 8,300) - am I missing anything essential that I shouldn't be without?

Some have told me to wait for the new Intel chips - but as they are a year away, I need to max out the avaliable CPU now, and quad seems the best option.

Am I on the right track? Cheers, Nick

What I can think of:

a) At least one kind of capture deck. If you work with DV enough, a DSR-11 is a nice choice. It's PAL/NTSC switchable, not that expensive, and quite reliable. No editing station is complete without a deck. Capturing with a camera is often painful stuff, and not good for the camera's lifespan at all.
b) At least one external drive -- even if you're not capturing to it, you often need the mobility. And it's great as a backup device.
c) A mixer and dedicated speakers tend to be nice.
d) A USB flash stick, preferably at least 512MB. Great for backing up project files, and transferring small files (eg. AIFF music files, notes) back and forth between stations. Just having this thing on hand is a life insurance policy on a project, and they take all of three seconds to mount.

One thing I did to help initial costs down as I was growing was to use dedicated firewire drives for each project. I would tell clients "For just $250 more, you'll have a dedicated drive that we can store all the media on. You can take it with you when were done."

This will free up some cash for you to invest in other needed things for the system itself. Just an idea!

This is the sort of input I'm looking for Derek thanks. I must admit to ignorance re capture decks and need to do some research. I'll Google on the DSR-11 but if you have any other URLs or pointers that would be great.

Re the external drive, I have one currently - 300gig for my Mac Mini setup, so I'm covered at the moment. May invest in more later.

I may go for the mixer later once I master Soundtrack Pro. Quality audio is a whole new adventure waiting for me .....

Agree on the flash, need to buy a couple more as my current ones are pretty much dedicated to my other life (Windows, ugh!) ....

Thanks Rick - I'm not really commercial yet, but agree this is a cool idea. I do have a several company and club projects, so they should invest too, right?

I agree with the one-drive-per-project suggestion. It also means at the end of the project -- which 50 per cent of the time isn't the end of the project, given jumpy clients, updating talent reels etc. -- I hand them the drive and they're responsible for the media. If you store enough project media on your internals, you're taxing your own system, not to mention complicating your own file management.

The way I see it, you should not be responsible for storing the clients' media the day they stop paying you. Unless you've worked long-term archiving of their material into what you charge them. Post houses do that...and they charge for the privilege.

How about a video monitor gang? Lost w/o one IMHO.



Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead, DV Products
Adobe
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe After Effects and Premiere Pro Community Blog
Follow Me on Twitter!

How'd we forget that? If not a calibrated broadcast monitor, at least a TV set. There are some things you simply can't see without an external monitor or TV -- such as any kind of accurate assessment of rendered graphics, stills and movements, interlacing, and colour. A TV is better than just looking at the Canvas and Viewer.

Keeping the costs down:

TV instead of monitor. Not as good, but not NEARLY as expensive. Savings is variable but at least $1000

Get the most base model G5 and buy all the upgrades elsewhere. Apple charges quite a bit for extra RAM, HDs, etc. So that would be G5, 1GB of ram, 1 200-250 GB harddrive, GeForce 6600.

I've been told that FCP 5 is Quad aware, but I haven't been able to find any real world tests to see if performance is significantly improved over the Dual. If not then, I would suggest the Dual at a savings of at least $800.

Put the saved money into RAM (4GB), a deck, and drives.

Andy

So again - 'scuse my ignorance, but how do I attach the second screen? does the NVIDIA GeForce 6600 have a DVI for the computer monitor and also another port for a video monitor? Or do I need to buy a better graphics card? With two monitiors should I be looking at a graphics card with more memory anyhow?

Also re the Dual vs Quad vs RAM - with HDV I thought that CPU power was everything? I can always buy more RAM later but Dual->Quad later would be a big upgrade wouldn't it?

Thanks for keepig the advice coming - this is very valuable as I spreadsheet the config and the pennies.

Nick

No Nick. You monitor out of the DV Deck or Capture Card. Whichever you are using. Note: when you monitor this way, connect the speakers to the DV Deck or DV Capture Card, not the Mac.



Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead, DV Products
Adobe
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe After Effects and Premiere Pro Community Blog
Follow Me on Twitter!

The Quad is only worth it if FCP utilizes it fully. Some programs aren't multiprocessor aware. FCP luckily is. However, some MP aware programs aren't quad aware, or else don't take advantage of all the extra computing cycles. I don't know one way or another with FCP but it's possible that it won't utilize anymore processing power than it does on a regular dual. If that's the case then there's no reason to get the quad. However, if it does, then of course you'd probably want to get the quad (depending on HOW much extra speed you're getting out of it). Since I haven't been able to get a straight answer out of Apple or any 3rd party specs on running FCP with a quad, I suggest erring on side of savings.

You mentioned that you only have about $5K to do this upgrade and a quad is going to be over $3,500 of it.

Andy

Ah OK Kevin, the mist is clearing ...

So I have not budgeted a capture card and no one has mentioned this as essential. I was going to just capture DV and later HDV into the Mac via firewire. Is this an amateur solution?

Does a capture card double as a graphics card? Or do I need another free slot?

What should take priority, a capture card or a capture deck? Does a capture deck obviate the need for a capture card? I guess with a deck I save camera tape-head wear, but does a capture card do other things that may be more important for me (I don't know - reduce render time or other stuff?).

I will always be burning to DVD (S-DVD or later HD or BluRay) and will not need to output to tape, so maybe a deck is a luxury?

Also re earlier CPU discussion, a Dual G5 will certainly save me money vs a Quad, but my prinicple (re PCs) has always been to max out to the latest market available CPU, and then buy more memory as budgets allow. Is this the wrong principle for FCP5 and DV-HDV?

Sorry to be so fundamental - but I'm moving from a very basic setup ....

Cheers, Nick

Andy - thanks for comments. On Apple's site the FCP processing looks a lot better on the Quad - but I'm in marketing too

Be good to hear some real world experience.

My budget could stretch a little if I am very persuasive and let my other half organize that trip to Tuscany she's so keen on ......

If you're working with firewire you don't need a capture card. Cards are good for more high level workflows. A good DV deck would do the job of capturing, monitoring out to a tv and recording to tape.

The Sony DSR11 is a good, cheap deck, but It doesn't do HDV. HDV is a whole 'nother barrel of ponies.

Hmm good point Jude - no HDV deck is no good to me, I'm trying to build for the future - barrels of ponies or sacks of squirrels, cans of worms etc etc)

Hey Nick,

I'm in kinda a similar situation as you. I am about to invest in a Quad G5, 250 GB HDD, 2 Gigs of Ram, GeForce 6600 vid card, Airport and Apple Care, and I'm just under $4000. As far as disk space goes, if you're doing DV, I'd buy Firewire drives as I need them. For Ram, 2 gigs will probably start you out nicely and as you start making real money doing this, then upgrade. Vid Card, as Andy said, the GeForce 6600 should work fine. For external monitoring, you are going to need a deck or a capture card. From what I hear, the DRS 11 is great, but at least $1100. And again, won't do you any good when it comes to HDV. But depending on how much logging and capturing you are doing, you can always rent the deck for the days you need it and, again, when you really start making money at this, buy you one. One of the options I'm looking into for video capture is the Firestore DTE Drive, which kinda makes the deck obsolete for batch and capture (mind you, a deck has more functions than just capture, like useful for monitoring out). These Firestore Drives are available for DV and HDV capture and most retail for under $1000. I've heard some good and bad things about these drives, but I suggest doing the research on your own and deciding for yourself. Couple of other things to think about, if you haven't already:

1. Do you plan on purchasing a new computer monitor or do you already have one you can use?

2. Do you plan on shooting as well, or just post-production? Have you considered what type of camera(s) will you work with and do you plan to rent or buy?

Great input Steven, I'm looking for a deck that will handle HDV and will definitely research the Firestore DTE drive. I'm really buying all this stuff in preparation for editing HD from HDV and investing in a DV only capture deck sounds a little retrograde.

Currently we are using Sony TRV 950s to shoot, and have been very happy with the results, although we are not getting the highest quality DVD output we'd like, which is why we are moving towards HDV. I will probably buy the FX1 in due course - my US based 'partner in crime' has already bought one and is delighted. We have been mostly shooting underwater, so the investment in gear is considerable - especially moving to HDV. Besides the actual cameras, the FX1 u/w housings and lighting cost way more (at least double) than the QuadG5 set up I am pulling together. (We are currently favoring the Light and Magic housing for the FX1.) Idea is that he invests upfront in the HDV video shooting, and I invest in the post production - for the time being. We'll probably end up with similar pre/post set-ups either side of the Pacific in due course.

I am finalizing the G5 setup based on comments from this forum and my own research and will most likely initially go for:

- Quad G5
- 2 internal 500 gig drives (one for programs, one for data)
- 2 Gig RAM initially
- NVIDIA GeForce 6600 Graphics card (no need for anything too fancy I believe)
- one gig thumb drive


Later I'll buy (in this order probably)
- more RAM - lots more RAM! Third party as Apple is so expensive
- extra external firwire hard drives as needed
- 30" computer monitor (already have 19" LCD)
- HDV/DV Capture Deck (rather than capture card, as I'll use firewire)
- External Monitor (tricky one this as HD is v particular)
- Sound mixing system - probably a lot later - I have good computer speakers already
- HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Burner (again tricky - my crystal balls are a bit cloudy on that one)

Question: you mention Airport and Apple Care, what is your logic behind those? I don't need wireless (I think) and have been happy with my Ethernet LAN set up (to several Win machines and two Mac Minis) and cable Internet. Not sure what Apple Care is - is that their post sales support? Is that good value?

Did I miss anything and did I get my priorities right? I already have the latest full Final Cut Studio and with the set up above I even get to run 'Motion' which was uninstallable on the Mini!

Cheers Nick

Do you think you really need a 500 gig drive for applications? Are you planning to partition this drive? Seems like overkill to me, and the money saved could go into something else.

Also, I find the 30 inch monitor too big to work with - you can't physically see the whole screen at once if you are close to it. Have you thought about getting two smaller monitors?

Maybe a 250 and a 500 would be a better combination I agree, but I believe a fast internal HDD for data would be a better solution than daisychains of firewire exernals for some projects

Interesting comment re the screen. I find the multiple windows of FCP on my 19" to be too small, and the text on some of the features is minute!

Could I attach say two 19" computer screens and split the FCP windows beween them (eg browser & viewer left, and timeline & canvas right?) does the GeForce 6600 have two DVI ports, or am I looking at another graphics card?

Nick,

<Question: you mention Airport and Apple Care, what is your logic behind those? I don't need wireless (I think) and have been happy with my Ethernet LAN set up (to several Win machines and two Mac Minis) and cable Internet. Not sure what Apple Care is - is that their post sales support? Is that good value?>

The Airport is simply for my convenience. I have four other macs and it would be easier setting up my network around my home/office. As far as the Apple Care goes, I DEFINATELY RECOMMEND IT. I'm telling you, when your stuff goes down it's nothing like having the piece of mind (particularly when finances may be tight) to know you can get your gear repaired with no additional money out of pocket. But this is from my experience.

I have to agree with Jude on a couple of things. The 500 Gig drives really may be overkill for the beginning. Again, I believe as you start making money you can always upgrade. Start off with what you feel you really NEED and upgrade as convenient. I have a buddy who frequents this forum <waynegranzin> who swares by ProMax Firewire HD and I've been witness to his experiences and they seem to work great. I have a Seagate that I'm using presently with no problems, but I'll probably be buying a ProMax G-Raid or SATA pretty soon.

Also, yeah, that 30 inch monitor IS really big. I personally work on two 17" displays and they work fine for me (and yes, the GeForce 6600 in the G5 you purchase will already support dual monitors). I was going to upgrade to two 19" LCD's but I've seen people work on these new Dell 24" monitors, and they work great. You get more than enough work space and at about $1000 they're more than 2 G's less than the Apple 30". I strongly recommend you look into one of those.

OK Steven great - I'll try the two computer monitor route at least to start with. I like that idea a lot and I can even test it out with the gear I have already.

Apple Care sounds like a good insurancy policy - I'll check out their support in Singapore and Sydney (my two current residences)

Re the HDD question, I'll go 250 for the OS and Pro Apps. I'm still keen on an internal data HDD - in fact that was recommended to me on another thread entirely (re where to place FCP files etc), but I guess I can add an internal HDD later if money is tight. I already have a large firewire external (but that is full at the moment!) and will doubtless buy more ...

Wow - I feel much more empowered to make a decision now. Thanks so much for the input everyone - gotta love this forum.

Cheers, Nick

>>'m still keen on an internal data HDD -<<

I agree this is a good idea. It's the most stable and reliable way to go. But only one of your internals needs to be that big. The boot drive - the one with the system software and all your applications doesn't really need to be that big,

If you add up all the possible software you would be installing, and add another 100 gig just in case you'd still probably be under 250 gig. It's video that needs lots of room.

Thanks for the confirmation that I'm not losing it Jude - large fast internal HDD seems sensible to me re stability, especially for all the junk I'll be throwing around with HDV!

So this is the config I'm now getting a quote on:

Two dual-core 2.5GHz PowerPC G5 processors
1.25GHz frontside bus per processor
1MB L2 cache per core
Three open PCI Express expansion slots
Memory: 2GB 533 DDR2 Non ECC SDRAM - 2x1GB
HDD 1: 250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm (Primary - for OS)
HDD 2: 500GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm (Secondary - for data)
DVD Drive: 16x SuperDrive Double-Layer (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Graphics Card: NVIDIA GeForce 7800 GT 256MB SDRAM
Other: Apple Keyboard & Mighty Mouse
One FireWire 800 port
Two FireWire 400 ports
Three USB 2.0 ports

Yes you may notice I've gone a little higher spec on the graphics card - again this is my bias from Windows days where every new PC I bought I maxed out the graphics within reason - tho this is obviously not the Quatro. Also looking at photos of the rear panel of the 7800 it seemed to me that it was better equiped for the dual DVI/ LCDs that Steven convinced me was a better solution to a single 30"....

I'll let you know how I get on. Cheers, Nick

Good Luck Nick,


Sounds like it's going to be a really good system. I'm glad you went with the upgraded card, as well. Not because I think you needed it or anything. But because as good as these forums are at garnering advice and getting input, you should always do what makes you comfortable. So again, good luck and I'll check back in when I get my system within the next few weeks.

Steven Gladney