Sound is half the story - want to share some editing tricks with WILD LINES?

I found out that by running a sequence in the timeline and watching it on the canvas window, it's possible to edit on the fly yet with exact precision. What you do is set the ROLL TOOL by pressing "r" on your keyboard and then when the scene is running, use the forward bracket and backward bracket to move the sound in the timeline one frame at a time forward and backward until you get the sound to synch up perfectly. The beauty of it is that you can keep your hand on the mouse and keep moving the cursor to a point at the head of the scene -- keep watching the scene and clicking the mouse -- the cursor will keep going back to the same spot where you set it at the beginning. You don't have to stop the scene from running in your canvas window! The frames will keep increasing and decreasing with every click of your finger on the right key. You'll have perfect synchronization on the fly in the shortest possible time.

My question for you is, tell me, how do you cut small pieces of sound from the edit window so you can paste them into the timeline? When editing wild lines, I end up with a lot of dead space -- where there is no room tone. I need to replace the sound when I move words around so they'll synch up with the lips of my subject. I know I can make subclips of the sound and then paste them into the browser, but there might be another way to replace room tone or other sound effects by cutting them out from different points in the sound track. Thanks for swapping sound editing techniques with me. I'm editing my feature film now. I have 35 years experience of editing on moviolas and flatbeds. I have a lot of tricks to share with you about editing in general. I hope you'll be generous as always and teach me some digital editing tricks that will save me time and make it possible for me to create a professional sound track. Thanks in advance for your help and consideration.

If you want to edit just sound, you edit like normal, but you can click the little "v1" doohickie on the far left of the timeline so that it disconnects from the track, and then only the audio will be added.

I'm not sure if this is what you are asking...

filmman, i have to ask: how are you editing in FCP?
you talk of subclips, and pasting.
this is not really how to edit in FCP, or any NLE for that matter.

load a clip from the browser into the viewer.
define the part of the clip you want to use with in and out points,
then edit to the timeline using F10 (overwrite edit)
or (F9 insert edit)
use the track target buttons to select which tracks you are editing to.

sorry, had to ask to clear this up / get my head around where you're at with FCP.

it's probably just a terminology thing.
and you probably meant Ripple, not roll.
roll will just move the edit point, and not adjust sync at all.

as for the Ripple tool: be careful with that.
it will slip sync on everything on the track after the edit you;re currently adjusting.

for adjusting sync you might be better of using either the slip or slide tools.
the only drag with those is that they DONT loop in FCP,
and you have to "loop" manualy.

oh, there is another problem with those: you'll be a lot safer if you only slip or slide one item at a time.
if you do need to work on a number of clips at once, put them on a track so they are free to move, and simply use the nudge keys to MOVE them (A for Arrow or Selection tool)

for the WT situation, i would say cut the WT into a track along side the original.
nudge till you get good sync.
if you need to cut it into smaller parts, use the blade tool,
then slip of slide (or move) those.
slip or slide wont give you "holes" (move will) but it could give you repeat frames, which you'd have to trim back, or change to fill. (oops... that's what we call "room tone" down under)

im going to backtrack now, then come back to the fill part.

replace edit can be great for, well, REPLACING the original line for the WT.
blade around the original line,
park on a chosen sync point, maybe a plosive (P or B sound), maybe an accented vowel sound
find the same point in hte WT,
check your target tracks are correct, and F11 to do a Replcae edit.

ok you've replaced the line, what to do about sync?

might be best to blade the line,
grab it, hold Shift and Option and drag a copy down to the next track. (option makes a copy Shift stops it from slipping sync)
now you can F11 Replace, and slip / slide against the original.

blade and slip/slide till you have total sync.

if you have double ups, and need to replace with room tone,
blade them, and yes, F11 Replace.

if you have a hole, extend it, then blade and replace.
you can replace from a clip loaded into the viewer from the timeline,
double click it into the viewer, park on some fill, or tone,
park on the part then needs to be replaced with tone in the timeline, and F11.

i dont do that too much. i do this:
blade the part that needs replacing with fill or tone.
double click it into the viewer
hold SHIFT, and you can drag an your viewer's in or out point to the start / end of some tone.
it;s like doing a SLIP edit, but with a lot more control you can SEE where the tone is, and you will actually scrub while dragging, too.

it's great working in the viewer, for sound editing.
if you load a clip into the viewer from the timeline, and then summon the roll or ripple tools with r or rr, you can perform roll or ripple edits WHILE SEEING WHAT YOU ARE DOING, sound-wise, which you cant do in the trim window.

here's an article on this:
[www.kenstone.net]

so there's some starters for you.

cheers,
nick

PS:
all those years cutting on film!
have you worked on anything that we might have seen?

oh, and here's an article on Replace edit:

[www.larryjordan.biz]


nick

I do sync kind of different again.

Usually you can get close to sync when you drop the sound onto the timeline by selecting an explosive point (like Nick says) like the start of a word on the timeline, finding the same point in the audio and dropping your audio at this point onto the timeline.

Then just select the audio in the timeline and type, for eg., +2 to move it 2 frames forwards or -5 to move it 5 frames backwards. Keep nudging until you find sync.

As for room tone, I usually grab a section and drop it into the hole, but on a different line of audio, so that it can be smoothed in and out under the hole. So, say the dialogue is on tracks 1 and 2, drop your filler onto tracks 3 and 4, making it longer than the hole, then put a fade top and tail so that it doesn't start or stop abruptly.

this is incredible advice. Thanks everyone. I'm printing out these procedures so I can put them before me when I'm editing ... until they become second nature. I'll probably modify the procedures a bit to suit my way of working, but this is great.

Thanks, Nick, for the wealth of information. I've worked on many movies over the years. 1970 to 75 in Norway, I've edited on theatrical movies (e.g., Dear Little Norway), industrials, documentaries, commercials. I shot camera and directed my first feature before moving back to LA in 75. I worked on marshall arts movies (Leo Fong, George Chung, Cynthia Rothrock), other independent movies (e.g., Killzone in 85 as editor and cinematographer). In 1989 I directed and edited Star Quest with Burt Ward (Robin in original Batman). I taught school for ten years and finally I realized I couldn't give up filmmaking anymore, so I'm back in LA now fiddling around with HDV. LOL I shot a 35mm feature with my Arri 2c just before I jumped into digital filmmaking. This is the feature I'm re-editing now. I recorded the sound myself -- all wild sound. I did an edit and lost it when I movied my files around -- it was the first time I was using FCP. But the sound wasn't synched up properly anyway, so I'm glad I have to re-edit the movie anyway. I edited the movie on my flatbed, digitized the edtied work print (picture and track separate) and now I'm fine tuning the synch, which I'm doing fairly well. The only problem I was having was with the dead spots in the track. I've been using a lot of razor blade -- my habit from film cutting. I've been using the roll tool a lot -- not the ripple tool which is next to it. I used the ripple tool when I first started out but it does funny things -- it turns on itself and starts to chew its tail -- I don't know how to describe this. LOL What am I doing wrong when using it? The roll tool on the other hand seems to move the sound clips that I have razored and placed on independent tracks one frame at a time and this is working for me. The slip and slide tools I used for a while but they do crazy things when I click too many times. I stopped using them.

I'm glad Mike pointed out the doohickie (v1) -- thanks Mike! Also, Jude, that was good suggestion -- I like to throw an extra track on 3 and 4 and use the razor to find room tone (fill -- we used to call it atmosphere in Norway).

Hi Filmman...i've got.. err.. far less experience than anyone.. Anywayz, this is what i would advise the actors, after they are hooked up with sound recorders and lavelier mics and other stuff.. Before they read their lines or sing or do whatever. Once sound and video are rolling, i have the actors clap their hands once before they do what they do, this helps it to sync in post.

I find this method a lot better than poncing about lookin at the actors' mouthes and listening to the Sfx while reading the script. It's just a clap.

Just 2 cents worth.

Hey, Charles, I used to do that, but I noticed it was affecting the concentration of my actors. After they slapped their hands together -- some of them did it real hard, thinking they had to duplicate the loudness of the slate :-) and then some of them were still sort of trembling from the exertion -- LOL. I also used to give the slate to one of the actors when I'd be shooting and directing alone, but then I was hit in the shins on one take -- the actor was trying to save me film so he tossed the slate at my feet and jumped in the scene. I had to keep rolling and holding my shin in pain. Luckily the camera was locked, otherwise I'd have lost the shot. But thanks for the advice anyway; it brought back bittersweet memories.

ROFL!!!!!!! i nearly choked reading that.

hey filmman,
you want to put that Burt Ward flick up on imdb.. it;s not there yet.
and you'll be pleased to know that "Killzone" got a good review there praising the cinematography.

anyway..

"I used the ripple tool when I first started out but it does funny things -- it turns on itself and starts to chew its tail -- I don't know how to describe this. LOL What am I doing wrong when using it?"

thinking too much!
if you trim something, it gets shorter.
simple as that.
try it again, and review the results.
but it does take a bit of getting used to.

all the best,
nick