Sound editing help needed on feature film - simple tricks of the trade.

I'm cutting only sound -- synchronizing wild lines recorded separately from picture takes shot with the Arri 2c. I'm using the RAZOR TOOL a lot. I've learned from the last thread how to use the RIPPLE TOOL. Thanks, guys, for suggesting that I try this tool. I agree; it's excellent. My questions are:

1) After I cut a sound bit and then move it to another track so I can use the RIPPLE TOOL on it, I create dead spots in the sound track. Should I worry about these at this point or come back to them later. I have like 500 shots in this movie and I'd say I have to manipulate about a 1000 bits of sound, mostly a few words at a time. Should I create the ambient sound as I go on or shall I do it later? And where shall I do it, in Soundtrack Pro, as the article by Larry Jordan suggests or in the FCP5 timeline? What are some of your recommendations based on your own methodology?

2) When I use the RIPPLE TOOL on the first cut of a CLIP, the picture track shows + or - frames. I have the SELECTIONS UNLINKED under EDIT, so why is the picture track moving?

> When I use the RIPPLE TOOL on the first cut of a CLIP, the picture track
> shows + or - frames. I have the SELECTIONS UNLINKED under EDIT, so
> why is the picture track moving?

Because rippling, by definition, is applied to every track. If you want a certain track to stay put while the others move, lock it first. However, this can be a very dangerous practice and can throw your entire timeline out of sync. Since your wild sound wasn't captured with the video, there will be no way to tell visually if you've torn your entire sequence off sync. So I'd suggest just getting used to not using Ripple for everything. Very often it's more accurate to just razor (B) or razor all tracks (CONTROL-B), delete, then close the gap or use the All Tracks Forward tool.

Also, if you're talking about slicing a number of frames off a sound clip that's isolated on its own track, I'd probably just single-click on the edge of the clip, use the number pad to shave off the number of frames I need, then close the gap myself to prevent unwanted rippling.

When you're talking about syncing, accuracy is much more important than speed.

Then I don't understand what rippling is all about. When I use it, the few words (that I have on the track bit that I've razored off and placed on an independent space) move forward or backward and I achieve synch. This works for me; it's fast and easy. I'd like to lock the picture track, because in my case the 100 minute movie is in 5 sections of picture track. There are no separations between the shots. So I want each picture track to stay put so I can synch all the dialogue to the picture. I don't need to shave off frames from the sound track. The razor tool works fine. ... ALTHOUGH I'd love it if when I find a spot in the edit window, I can go to the same spot on the timeline. Unfortunately I don't know how to do this, so when I'm in the edit window, I move the timeline one frame at a time and find out exactly where I want to cut, then I click on the timeline cursor (and hope that it doesn't move) and then I count the same number of frames before I use the razor. It's tedious but it works most of the time.

What is B and control B do? Thanks!

> What is B and control B do? Thanks!

It's CONTROL-V, actually -- my typo. This razors across all video and audio tracks where the playhead is. Not useful in your case, it seems.

> Then I don't understand what rippling is all about. When I use it, the few
> words (that I have on the track bit that I've razored off and placed on an
> independent space) move forward or backward and I achieve synch.

I don't think you're using the Ripple tool in the best way. Ripple works best if you're trying to remove material from or add material into the sequence, without leaving a gap -- if you're editing sound and picture at the same time.

If your picture is locked, and all other sound clips in the sequence already in place, and only one small sound clip needs to be moved, there's no reason to use Ripple at all. Just click on the clip to select it, and use the number pad to move it ahead or back to fit. Or, hold down OPTION and use the LEFT and RIGHT Arrow keys to nudge a frame at a time. For locating the correct section of sound in that clip, I'd double-click to bring it into the Viewer and then just punch in new In/Out points, or use Match Frame.

> This works for me; it's fast and easy. I'd like to lock the picture track,
> because in my case the 100 minute movie is in 5 sections of picture track.
> There are no separations between the shots.

Huh?

Okay, we're getting closer; I'm beginning to see what I need to describe to allow you to help me.

My entire movie has been transfered from 35mm to DVCAM tapes -- I've captured these tapes to FCP5 in five sections. Each 20 minute section is one clip. The sound was double mono channels, so I deleted on track and proceeded to slice the sound every time the synch was poor -- there are a lot of out of synch shots, maybe 500 -- almost every shot needs to be re-synched :-)

That's another reason why I didn't bother to reconnect the offline media -- remember the problems I had? LOL

First I need to synchronize my entire movie, shot by shot. Then I'll start the re-editing process, because the film needs some serious tinkering to make it as far as distribution is concerned.

The nudging process will work for me, because all I have to do is razor blade the dialogue and nudge it via the OPTION + ARROWS, right? Okay, I'm glad you told me about this. I though the RIPPLE TOOL did this as well, but I realize now that the RIPPLE TOOL is better suited for two pieces of sound or picture being side by side and then for the editor to make one longer and the other shorter -- in other words an easy way to split the picture and sound tracks -- am I right?

That still leaves the problem of dead spots in the sound track. I don't have the right sounding ROOM TONE or AMBIENCE in my movie -- because of all the juggling I have to do with the sound. I have ocean waves in the background sound. I will have to find waves that can fill in and match the waves I'm splitting up when I'm synching up the dialogue. There are other sound effects problems as well, so I have a long job of finding appropriate FILL sound to smooth out this entire feature film.

And I haven't even gotten to picture editing yet, BUT THAT'S ANOTHER STORY and another thread :-)

> I realize now that the RIPPLE TOOL is better suited for two pieces of sound
> or picture being side by side and then for the editor to make one longer and
> the other shorter -- in other words an easy way to split the picture and
> sound tracks -- am I right?

Almost. If you have A cutting to B, and you're trying to add to A while taking away the exact same amount from B, then Roll is what you want, not Ripple.

Rippling means you add to or take away from a clip, and the entire timeline increases or decreases by that amount -- the duration of everything else remains the same.

But yes, I'd definitely finish syncing before you edit picture.

So the RIPPLE TOOL when being used simply adds frames on one end and subtracts the same number of frames from the other end? I'm mystified. I don't see the tool doing that. It only moves across when I use the right "]" and "[" brackets.

I will enjoy using the ROLL TOOL then. I'm going to use it on my next project because that's how I used to cut analog video; I used to use the SMPTE code numbers as the guiding numbers for cutting shots and I was able to maintain perfect synch.

Okay, so now I just click on a sound piece and use the OPTION and arrow keys to move the sound into synch.

As for my present dilemma: I still don't know what to do about the missing AMBIENT SOUND. When do I cut the AMBIENT SOUND in? And where do I get the AMBIENT SOUND from? I don't have enough of it once I finish razoring the track up. The bits and pieces of sound are all out of wack. The sound has bumps in it. I need clean AMBIENT SOUND that hasn't been chopped up and messed up with respect to up and down amplitude of -- uneven ocean waves and jarring sounds.

Hi:

Here's a long-winded answer.
> When do I cut the AMBIENT SOUND in?

After the picture cut is as close to locked as your post schedule allows.
If you try to clean and backfill now, you may spend a lot of time fixing things that won't be used, and other problems will be created in the picture cut that negates your hard work. I'd fix what you can quickly as you cut pix so the audio makes sense, but make specific notes about what the issues are as you go, for reference downstream.

> And where do I get the AMBIENT SOUND from?

Your production sound mixer should have recorded a minute or two of clean ambience at every camera set up...perhaps that wasn't done.

Next choice is go out and record ambience in the locations you shot at, with similar gear- it won't match perfectly, but it might be workable- bounce samples of the problem areas to your iPod for reference when you're out recording.

Third choice is hit up a dialog editor for what you need- people have massive libraries of fill laying around, maybe you'll get lucky.

Fourth choice is commercial libraries. Dicey at best, but do-able if you have the patience.

Fifth choice is to buy some of the better looping tools and build them from your bits and pieces. Sorry, I don't have any of the names of such software at my finger tips.

> The sound has bumps in it.

Sure. That's why there are dialog editors.

> I need clean AMBIENT SOUND that hasn't been chopped up and messed up > with respect to up and down amplitude of -- uneven ocean waves and
> jarring sounds.

Ocean waves are just about the toughest thing to clean out of production dialog tracks, and one of the easiest thing to go out and record (in L.A., anyway) for ADR fill.
As you might be noticing, any organic white noise source (waves, wind, rain) is extremely difficult to remove because:

a) the content covers the frequency range of the human voice, so attempts to remove these kinds of sources also damage the voices, and
b) organic noise sources are rarely steady-state, usually moving around in the sound spectrum so you have to process every second differently, resulting in choppy and unattractive results.
c) The human ear is a pretty finely-honed tool, evolved to be able to distinguish very small changes in environmental noises, so that we don't get eaten by predators while listening to Death Cab For Cutie or Coltrane.

Here's my opinion:

Best bet: ADR the whole scene (or movie) and add fill from a library. Or re-shoot the scenes and record more carefully this time. Hire the best production mixer and boom man you can afford, it will save you hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars in post. No kidding.

Second best bet: Hire a top notch dialog editor and pay them well.

Third possibility: Prepare yourself for a long learn-as-you-go process. Equip yourself with the best tools you can afford- noise removal filters (Sound Track Pro, Sound Soap, Spark's DeNoise plug-in, I think Audacity [freeware] has a de-noise plug-in), various EQ and notch filters.

Be prepared to deal with one line at a time, experiment with the tools to see which works on the particular instance. Patience pays off, if you don't shoot yourself first.

Listen carefully so you hear how much damage you're doing to the audio quality. Decide what the acceptable amount of schmutz is, versus the acceptable amount of aliasing and other processing-induced problems you are willing- scratch that- are going to live with.

Commit to a process, save the settings, document what you did.

Split all the lines from a particular shot to one audio track, move to the next line in the shot, tweak the settings as needed.

Move to the reverse shots and repeat. (Like a conversation, for instance. I'm thinking about a romantic beach scene I cut years ago, where one set up was straight into the wind and waves; the other set up was straight onto shore, picking up traffic and the generator. I still wake up screaming...)

This sort of editorial is very time intensive and detail oriented, as you are finding out.

Good luck.

tc

> So the RIPPLE TOOL when being used simply adds frames on one end and
> subtracts the same number of frames from the other end?

No no no no no...the exact opposite. I'll explain again.

You have two clips, A and B, separated by a cut. Both clips are two seconds long.

If you're trying to add 10 frames to the end of A (a later Out point on A) and you're trying to remove 10 frames from the beginning of B (a later In point on B), then you want to use the Roll tool. A will now be 2:10 in length and B will be 1:20. The overall length of the two clips does not change, because you are adding to A exactly the number of frames you are removing from B. If you think of the two clips as one big chunk, you are "rolling" the edit point forward or backward, without changing the length of the overall chunk, which will still be four seconds total.

If you're trying to add 10 frames to the end of A but NOT remove 10 frames from B, then you are using the Ripple tool. A will now be 2:10 long, but B will still be 2:00 long. This is called "rippling" because the 10 frames you added to A will have a "ripple effect" throughout your timeline. Everything in your timeline after the A and B clips will be pushed back by 10 frames.

Now, the reason Ripple can be dangerous is if you have tracks locked, or audio clips that overlap the edit point where you're performing the ripple edit. Because Ripple pushes back or brings forward every single clip down the timeline, if one of your tracks happens to be locked while you perform this function, that track will not move -- but every other track will. That means if the contents of the locked track are supposed to be in sync with something else down the timeline, you've just torn that locked track out of sync with everything else.

> As for my present dilemma: I still don't know what to do about the missing
> AMBIENT SOUND. When do I cut the AMBIENT SOUND in?

As late as possible. I agree with TC -- if you do it early and the edit changes, it'll probably be wasted work. However, I've also learned that even preliminary work of smoothing out the sound, filling out the holes in the ambience, does a great deal in making a rough cut more presentable. So I tend to do crude sound repairs as I edit, or at the end of a session. It doesn't have to be very polished -- just find as clean a piece as possible from the dialogue pieces you're already using and copy them. If this is a real film/show/commercial, you'd be doing a pro sound mix later on anyway, so the editor's sound work is going to be just for presentation purposes.

Great! I finally understood the RIPPLE TOOL. Thanks a million, derekmok. And tc, that was a great treatise on AMBIENT SOUND.

Okay, no wonder the RIPPLE TOOL worked for me; it's because I was putting each sound bit on a separate track with room to move. I didn't want to lose sound from either end of the sound bit. But I was throwing the picture track off synch, so I have to go back and find out what damage I've done to the picture track. Luckily there are only 5 clips in the whole 100 minute movie, so I just have to check on what was removed from the picture track at the beginning and end of each 20 minute clip. The sound bits themselves have pluses and minuses galore. But they're in synch ... now. I still have another third of the movie to go, then it's all synch ... for the first time ... thanks to FCP and thanks to you guys.

I tried the click on the sound bit, hold OPTION and nudge with the ARROW keys -- this works. I don't need the other fancy tools for what I'm doing. As for the AMBIENT sound, okay, here I'm going to follow your advice, derekmok. I'm going to do a rough job of patching up the missing sound as best as I can, and later I'll consider one of the procedures tc mentioned. I have plenty of sound on my MiniDV tapes. I recorded the whole movie for sound with a Canon Optura. I used it as a way of getting sound AND workprint, because I couldn't afford to work print the 35mm until I was done with the whole movie. So for 5 months I saw nothing except what I saw through the viewfinder and on tape :-) I made this movie all by myself -- solo shooter, guerrilla filmmaker. LOL

One other question: I'm in the habit of making loops of AMBIENT SOUND when I edit in 35mm (on a moviola). I have a 35mm Magnasync Moviola dubber and recorder as well. So I'm always recording AMBIENT SOUND and plugging it in as I go. Is there any way I can do that in FCP? Should I use the Soundtrack Pro for doing that? Or is there a way I can take a subclip of sound of 12 frames, for example, and stretch it to fill a sound gap of 2 minutes?

RIPPLE ROLL SLIP & SLIDE -- WOW!!!!!

I couldn't wait to tell you this! I'm so excited. I didn't have to cut up my sound and put it on different tracks. All I had to do was razor it, leave it on one track, and then use all the above tools to synch up the words. I didn't even need to fool around with AMBIENT SOUND. Now I'm still not profficient in using these tools so it's going to take some practice, but I love it; I can actually make animals talk too now. LOL

You can easily make a loop of ambient sound: just find the 12 frames you want, create a new track for them, and paste them endless times. (A process you can speed up by pasting 4 times, copying the new "4x12", and pasting that several times, recopying it... etc. It'll grow exponentially.)

But, just so you know, 12 repeated frames will probably be picked up by the human ear as a rhythm.

I've tried this in the past and I've always removed it.

<But, just so you know, 12 repeated frames will probably be picked up by the human ear as a rhythm.>>

No doubt. 12 frames is a little short, the longer the better. I've messed with reversing the direction of every other repeated clip to reduce the repetitiveness, but that can sound weird for sound due to motion, best for just "room tone". And putting audio cross dissolves at the cuts in your "loop" can reduce the perception of rhythm.

Scott

tc refers to ADR. Sorry, but that stands for what?

Originally it was for Automated Dialog Replacement. Some folks think it's for Additional Dialog Recording. I've heard one or two others, but I can't think of them at the moment.

Also called "looping, " but that, nowadays, is more properly a term used by walla groups to describe what they do- not to be confused with "dubbing", which is a) the final mix process (from the old school magnetic film recorders, called "dubbers" or b) replacing dialog with in a different language.

But it's all sort of interchangeable in conversation.

And it means that you get the actors to come into the studio and record new voice while they watch the movie running (they lipsync to themselves), so that you can replace the bad audio with good, clean audio captured in a voiceover booth, rather than onset with a bulldozer on the beach going in the background.