OT: s-video or component for projector?

Coming out of a DVD player, going into a projector, which is going to give me a better, sharper image?

Thanx,

Kevin



"A problem can never be solved by the same consciousness that created it"
Einstein

id go with S video - i usually get a better video signal than composite... but that might just be me

- edit replaced component with composite, to many drinks this evening!



Post Edited (07-01-06 18:26)

Component.

I think Josh is thinking "composite".
the order of quality is composite, S-video and top of the analog heap is component or RGB.
If it's a "data" projector, you can still achieve a horrible picture. Most projectors in the world are still optimized for data graphics vs video. What kind of projector is it?

Dell, don't recall the model number. I guess I'll do some experimenting and see. It claims to be able to handle 1080i and 720p. we'll see.

Kevin



"A problem can never be solved by the same consciousness that created it"
Einstein

send me the model number if u can find it. I'm an amateur editor but I do A/V systems integration for a living. I'll give u my 3 cents worth if your interested.

ah, remember, this might not be the right forum for this kind of discussion

Please discuss. I'm curious myself, as I'm sure many others are as well.

Steven Gladney



Sometimes the obvious is hidden in plain view.

First off let me preface this by saying its work for a non-profit. The Dell projector is a 3000 lumins projector for $1100. It is hooked up to a sony DVD player and has the ability to accept composite, svideo, and component. I did the experimenting tonight and the svideo looked the best. The component was strange, where it looked good it was very sharp, but the artifacting was very noticeable and bad where it was bad, and it wasn't the dvd, maybe sony never expected anyone to use the component connections on a less expensive player. I'll do more experimenting to see what happens if I hooked it up directly to a computer.

So far, for the price, I'm blown away by the image. It looks great!

I've spoken to other "a/v guys" and the moment the price drops below $10,000 for a projector they are convinced its crap. They may be correct, but compared to what this place was using before I'm very happy.

Kevin



"A problem can never be solved by the same consciousness that created it"
Einstein

"I've spoken to other "a/v guys" and the moment the price drops below $10,000 for a projector they are convinced its crap".

yep, cynical bastards aren't we! However, it's usually not based upon snobbery. It's just that you usually don't get something for nothing. Heard that before?

"The component was strange, where it looked good it was very sharp, but the artifacting was very noticeable and bad where it was bad, and it wasn't the dvd, maybe sony never expected anyone to use the component connections on a less expensive player".

-Yep. The problem is not the component format by itself. I'm actually suprised that it touts the ability to display component signals at all. Looks like you need to share the VGA input connector between computer and video?? That's kind of a hinkey work around (if that's the case). The critical thing is if you really need to put up one of the HD resolutions, you can't use the composite or S-video inputs. Component or RGB is the only choice.

Note that the unit you have ( I think it's the Dell 2400MP) is a single chip DLP.
3 chip DLP is the pro standard and will deliver much more accurate color rendition. The native resolution of the unit is XGA. (1024 x 768). This is still a 4 x 3 native panel. All resolutions above this will be scaled downward to match.
Units in this price range have a "block style" light engine and optics and will typically have very poor convergence around the edges of the screen. You can see this if you put up a convergence pattern. I'm sure there are many other compromises as well. However, for 1100 dollars, I'd be willing to take a look at one. At least with an output approaching 3000 ANSI, it's flexible enough to work with the lights up for data presentations where high contrast isn't necessary. In addition, it comes with a lens that supports a much broader zoom ratio than most in it's class.
Actually, you could just about write a book (and people have) about what goes into a high end projector in the way of optics, electronics and signal flexibility. From $10K on downward, there are a ton of compromises to wade through. You have to pick the best set of features for your particular application and be able to live with the picture quality if you are unable or unwilling to spend more. If your happy with it (as you say) and it does what you need it to do, then I'd call it a day and replace it when it breaks. (Make sure it gets recycled!).

Comparing a high end auditorium display projector to a home projector is apples and oranges.

I have a Sanyo PLV Z1, Its not bright, well in the sense you want to have to room full of light and watch a dvd or a HD broadcast. No I have to keep the room semi dark, only 800 lumens.

But it has a native 16 x 9 chip its LCD not DLP and it looks great. I have a 8 foot 16 x 9 diagnol screen maxi. People sit and view off air and DVD's and think its great. THe lens is good, but the range is small. Its a coffe table type, like the Dell. I gave up brightness for native 16 x 9 and a decent lens.

I don't understand how you are seeing component signals give artifacts.

Though I did find out not all people can see DLP without some artifacting.

I was deciding between projection (projector) and Projection in a cabinet thing. Well the bang for the buck is a stand alone projector IF you can deal with the fact its a projector and the cable runs.

DLP (unless they were able to fix it) will not dispaly properly to all people. When looking at sets in the store, I complained to the sales guy about the weird artifacting I was seeing. He sorta looked at me "funny" and said what do you see. I told him, and he replied that certain people see what I see. I has to do with how your brain deals with the light impluses from the DLP system.

You could have been seeing this type of artifacting. I recall checking to see if what the guy told me was true, and I think I heard back it was. Its been several years, and when they first came out. They could have found a way to not have it happen since then.

If component is not working for you then its not the component signal its something else. Composite is a mix. S is the luminance stripped from the color. The color remains combined. Luminance makes up about 80 percent of the signal is what I have always heard. Why S is so superior to composite. THen there is Component.

component is RGB or you will also see YUV. This is more complicated that a couple of sentences. However this is the best way to send and receive the data. I don't see how the signal is worse than S, because it artifacts. Please explain how you get that or see that.



Lonn Bailey

there is something ive noticed with various projectors. dont know if its lcd, dlp, colorwheel, blah, blah, blah... but with many projectors, when i blink i see random areas of r,g and b. i have heard other people say they see that as well.

anyone have any insight on where this comes from???

<<<when i blink i see random areas of r,g and b.>>>
<<<anyone have any insight on where this comes from???>>>

That's the spinning wheel. If you move your eyes fast enough, your vision is going faster than the screaming little color wheel can refresh the screen. The projector is only doing one color at a time.

If you see a projector that doesn't do that, it doesn't have a wheel.

I really hope they get a working display system soon. It's getting harder and harder to keep our glass monitors working.

Koz

I don't know if any of you are interested in the only TRUE 1080 projector for the prosumer market that I have found but here it is:

[www.projectiondesign.com]

Will set you back about $30,000 if the price here is to be believed

[www.ivojo.co.uk]


On the DLP note there is a really nice flash animation that explains the tech really simply here: [www.dlp.com]


At this price I'd buy a Sony SRX-R110CE or a SRX-R105CE 4K projector which both have 4096 x 2160 resolution - I have seen for sale for about $22,000

The link to the Sony SRX-R110CE and SRX-R105CE is here:

[www.sonybiz.net]


Ben





For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

For the home theatre people, the JVC DLA-HD2K-SYS is a hell of a good looking unit. It's native 1080P. (yep). Not to bright though, as usual with home theatre units. If you can kill the lights, this unit looks really good if u supply it with an HD-DVD signal for instance.
It'll set u back over 10K with the electronics interface but..... I haven't seen anything that can touch it for video applications at this price point. It's not built for data (computer) use but will take the signal.

After all the replys, back to the question. component is better. More to the point, you MUST use component if your trying to display anything other than standard NTSC video. Forget S-video for HD.
IF your unit will not display component signals reliably, then you cannot view HD signals with it. (all the while realizing that the unit will scale every HD signal you sent it as well).
Hope that helps.

Your "eyes" are always moving.

Its how you see.

Image retention, fovia. all that stuff.

a snip about the artifacts from [www.projectorcentral.com]

DLP Rainbow Artifacts

For readers unfamiliar with the issue, let's focus a bit on DLP rainbow problems and how these two units compare. First, every single chip DLP projector uses a spinning color wheel with red, green, blue, and sometimes white (clear) segments. Color information on the screen is updated sequentially as the wheel spins. Because of this some people can see the colors separate in what is often described as a rainbow effect. Most can't see it. But for those who can, the visual distraction is enough to eliminate any enjoyment of the material being displayed. And even for some who cannot see the rainbows, the sequential refreshing can produce eyestrain, visual fatigue and headaches.

One thing is known for certain--the faster the sequential color refresh rate, the less it is a problem. The percentage of the population that experiences any sort of adverse reaction to a DLP image decreases rapidly as the refresh rate increases. Thus the BenQ PB6100 has become the projector of choice under $1,000 due in part to the fact that its 3x wheel is a full 50% faster than the standard 2x wheels of other DLP products in that price range. [Correction: As of this date, BenQ has informed us that the original spec on this unit quoting a 3x rotation speed was in error. The actual rotation speed is 2x. EP 12/8/04]

The earliest DLP projectors had wheels rotating 60 times per second. The wheel had a single panel of red, green, blue, and white. So all pixels had color information updated once every 1/60 second. Many people found the rainbow artifacts intolerable at this speed. So on next generation units the wheel speed was increased to 120 cps, which is two rotations per 1/60 second or "2x" rotation speed. This significantly reduced the degree to which people were bothered by rainbow artifacts. Most DLP projectors built for presentation use today use 2x speed wheels.

Nevertheless, many people still remain sensitive to rainbows even at 2x speed. So BenQ increased the rotation speed to 3x in the PB6100 and other models, thereby taking another significant step in reducing the problem. This contributed to making the low cost PB6100 extremely popular for home entertainment. But it is not a benefit for just home entertainment. The last thing anyone using a projector for business presentation needs is their prospects being distracted from the sales pitch by irritating artifacts on the screen. Teachers do not want to lose the attention of their kids to disturbances on the screen, and they don't want them getting headaches either. So the faster rotation speed has good application across all uses of video and data projectors. We look forward to the day, coming soon no doubt, that the standard rotation speed on all DLP projectors is 3x or greater. At that refresh rate very few folks will be bothered by this artifact and the issue will be put to rest.



Lonn Bailey

When using component, make sure all your cables are the same length for starters.

same type length etc. timing will be effected if you use cables of different lengths and types etc.

Koz can speak to that better than I can.

When you set up your projector, make sure all the cables match, if not this will cause problems.



Post Edited (07-03-06 08:26)

Lonn Bailey

Just fyi -
with rgu 49 u and other standard video cable as a very rough approximation: 1 foot equals 1 degree in chroma phase. An 4 or 5 degree difference in phase on one color channel versus the others is quite visible.

Ian

Nice to see JVC bringing a "cheaper" 1080 to the market than the ones I found...

Time to sell the car and re-mortgage the house!





For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

No need. 1080p for now is too hyped for the price. I have an InFocus 480p projector pumping SD dvd's from an HD-DVD player and it is spectacular. 720p projectors can be had for as little as $1300 that blow mines away and I don't see any artifacts where I sit, from 12 feet away. What a waste of money.

Well, alright, but, 480P is not HD, nor is it a native 16 x 9 format. As for 1080P, look up!, it's about to drop on your head. It's the milestone goal of every consumer electronics manufacturer in their year 2006 product release. It looks dam good.

InFocus is owed by Sanyo. We've owned and used their product for years. Falls into the cheap one piece light house assembly category. Don't bother to send them out for repair. Does fine for computer data.

see what u started here? Almost a whole page of non-final cut dialog. Would u be interested in buying a 1984 vintage CRT projector?

There is so much difference between SD and HD - especially on a projector, its not hype, I work with both all the time and believe me its almost like comparing VHS on a cheap TV to Digibeta on a Grade 1.

You won't see any artifacts on an SD downconvert from HD-DVD mainly because you don't have the resolution to see them in the first place, furthermore you may find very little artifacting on the HD anyway if it is encoded well. Your InFocus most likely uses 854x480 native resolution, its just not 1920x1080 in fact it's less than a quarter the resolution.

I use either a JVC DT-V1910CG or a SONY BVM-A32E1WM for HD monitoring and grading but give me a 12foot 1920x1080 Screen projected from one of the projectors discussed earlier and I would be a very happy man.

720p projectors are great but they are no good to grade and online a 1080i programme on they are about half the resolution of 1080. 720p formats are progressive and not interlaced and most importantly because the cheaper projectors just don't handle the image to spec.

By the way, I'm not selling the car or re-mortgaging the house just yet - I don't NEED to buy a 1080 projector at the moment - but give it a year and hopefully I'll have one at least for viewing, and if I am VERY lucky with work, maybe a SONY 4K...

...Oh and an IMAX screen to view those lovely images from my Red Camera, an Octuple-core ProMac, a 52.1 surround sound system, contracts with 3 major film/TV companies, a classic Porsche 356 B 2000 GS-GT Carrera 2 Cabriolet in silver or red, a private jet, a personal masseuse for those long form edits and a magic mug that runs to the kitchen and makes me vanilla latte. :-P

Seriously though HD is here, HD is the future and you won't be able to watch it on a 480p...


Question: If HD becomes the "Standard" when will SD cease to be called "Standard Definition"?


Ben





For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

>>Question: If HD becomes the "Standard" when will SD cease to be called "Standard Definition"?
<<

I always think that when they say 'modern' - like 'modern music' or 'modern thinking'. Its like 'New Wave'. Not so new anymore.