FCP to Avid to FCP

[This is cross posted on the creative cow and apple discussions]

We're working with an editor who is comfortable with Avid and wants to cut this feature on an old Media Composer. However, the director wants to also use us for all other functions, but our strength is in mastering with FCP and Final Touch. We're trying to create a compatible solution for all involved & trying to come up with some solutions. The all Avid route is too cost-prohibitive for an independent film.

The project is shot on HD @ 23.98. Our plan was to digitize in FCP to an Avid XXX.XXX compatible file, move the media plus EDL to the Avid. We'd love to be able to also log on FCP and then move that to the Avid too. I have a feeling the later is asking too much.

On top of all this, the editor has an ancient Media Composer which he says he'd update to use HD clips. Not that I know, but I'm doubting it will work. I'd love to hear suggestions on this.

Finally, we finish here in FCP at HD 444 RGB which prints to film and goes out to deliverables. Has anyone here taken offline EDLs from Avid to FCP successfully? The main concern is wether this all happens in the native frame rate or at 29.97 TV speed.

Automatic duck I was told cannot take 23.98 from FCP to Avid. They recommended NOT involving an Avid in the mix. I was hoping for some alternate workflows.

Thanks for your time.

david

Any way you can cut with FCP all the way? If the guy can't learn, can you get another guy?



Kevin Monahan
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Learning FCP from an Avid isn't that hard...

I've done it.

I think I'm with Monahan.

Get a nice cup of coffee. You're going to be spending a lot of time struggling with cross-machine issues and I don't mean the obvious ones. "Oh, gee, one of the Avid clips is brighter in Final Cut than on the Avid.

How the hell did you export that clip? The blacks are completely crushed.

Go ahead, ask me how I know this.

Koz

The guy has an OLD Media Composer? Do you mean pre-adrenaline line? If that's so, then I don't know if he CAN edit HD on it. Unlike FCP, sometimes "upgrading" Avid means buying all new hardware.

Either way, it sounds like a headache. Tell him to buy, "FCP for Avid Editors". Great book for getting him over the hump.

Andy

The guy with the old MC is willing to upgrade for the HD clips? WHat kind of HD clips (you said simply HD @ 23.98). If it's Uncompressed HD, He will be spending $29,000 on an HD Adrenaline and as koz said, you will be ripping your hair out dealing with cross-app issues that will drive you insane.

I agree with Kev. I came from an Avid Editing background & it took me all of 1 day to be up and running on FCP. Give the Editor this:

[www.amazon.com]

- Joey



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

+1 for telling the avid editor to suck it up and learn fcp. i've come from an avid and avid DS background of 10+ years and i've been able to start HD onlining in FCP in a matter of weeks thanks to the FCP for Avid Editors book.

+2 for telling him to go with FCP. We transitioned an entire company of hard core avid editors (almost 100 of them) to FCP. It can be done. You just have to have the will to INSIST on it. Any kind of cross platform effort wil just NOT be worth all of the headaches involved.


mark

Thanks for your input. The obvious--teaching a dog new tricks--isn't so easy with some people. From where I stand we've seen the maximum resistance from Avid people more than any other--a stark fact that we've been graced with many a senior editor with a substantial IMDB dating from the 1960's.

This inflexibility is a hardening attribute, akin to those cemented in their editorial mnemonics, chilled at the brave new world of a newly accessible media. I don't blame them, considering the raft of embarrassing imitation roiling out of edit rooms from what an associate terms the "DV Nation."

I look at this scenario as providing a translator for someone who has great difficulty learning a language, facilitating them to work.

The advice is appreciated. I can't use any of it because I need a solution to bridge this gap to make use of an older generation's talent. Advising them to read a book is not going to work, a suggestion just to inflame the dilemma.

We're not that inexperienced to export clips from one NLE and expect the gamma to be the same in another system. The procedure I'm speaking of would be handled by adjunct data processes, like EDLS--just the way larger post concerns deal with DIs and HD onlines. Besides, in an offline assembly concerned with the cut, no one blinks at colour values or exposure--that QC is evaluated at injest and on set.

The editor asserts he'd upgrade--whatever that involves, new system or not--so again, the concern is the actual workflow, not the changing of the editor to learn a new system, the incredulity of upgrading an Avid, not the ease at which you can learn FCP. Those things I know already well enough.

Thanks for your considerate input.

david

David,

Therein lies the rub...the "holier-than-thou" attitude of the hardcore Avid Editor (aaahhhhh...Avid-L...the old days) that refuses to learn FCP. I know them well. I was a Mod on the Avid.com boards for a time and was asked to leave when I praised FCP as a viable alternative to the bugginess in the Avid systems in a few threads. Boutique after boutique was converting to FCP and they could not stand it on the Avid boards. Users started asking me FCP questions on the Avid boards and they would have none of that. It's just plain SMART to know both NLE's...but not for the same project. If you have the option, start on one NLE - finish on one NLE.

Very sorry to hear you have such belligerent team members. I wouldn't be working with those individuals again if I was assembling a team.

...but that's just me

What you need is Sebsky Tools:

[www.dharmafilm.com]

- Joey



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Get the editor the AVID/FCP book but also never underestimate the power of a well trained FCP/AVID capable assistant. A good computer savvy assistant can deal with the majority of AVID-FCP discrepancies (hello media management)and let the editor deal only with how he/she wants to map the keyboard and eventually find the things that FCP does well. I have taken an AVID editor through this process in the last month and she had read the book and was open to learning but I found that the assistant was bearing the majority of the work by making it seem like an AVID as much as possible and at some point we introduced the more FCP elements (motion tab, pasting keyframes for audio)


ak



ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

I find it telling that editors with credits from the 60s (before there WAS an Avid), who obviously had to make the change from uprights, to flatbeds, to Avid, now all of a sudden refuse to go any further.

Andy

> On top of all this, the editor has an ancient Media Composer which he says
> he'd update to use HD clips. Not that I know, but I'm doubting it will work.
> I'd love to hear suggestions on this.

Test it. If the editor doesn't know what he's talking about, then you can probably convince him to go to FCP. And I agree with Kevin -- Avid-FCP is much easier than FCP-Avid, because FCP is much closer to regular computer operation, and much easier to pick up with no prior experience.

Sadly, Sebsky Tools will not be of much use here, except for getting metadata accross to Avid. Two major problems:

1. There is no way to get the timecode and reel info in the mediafiles from FCP to Avid because Avid does not read the TC track embedded in QuickTime files. You'll have to add TC and reel name manually in Avid after the import - I've tried it - it takes time - and is very error prone...
Automatic Duck has more on this workflow here: [www.automaticduck.com]

2. Back in FCP, importing a sequence and reconnecting it to existing mediafiles is basically asking for trouble. FCP relies on (media)filenames to perform the reconnect. That means if you take an EDL from Avid, FCP will use the eventnumber as the clipname and search for a mediafile with that name (ie 003). This means you're forced to do the reconnecting manually but it takes time to figure out what mediafile clip "003" belongs to...
Its easier using Automatic Duck as it uses the actual clipname from Avid to name its mediafiles, but then there is the 23.98 frame problem...

Wonder if you could do HD finish using the (cheap) software version of Media Composer? ;-)

All the best - Peter



Post Edited (08-18-06 11:33)

Just throwin' stuff out there. BTW...that "cheap" MC Software is $5,000 (not so "cheap".

Doesn't make any reasonable sense to start in Avid & finish in FCP. Should do both in FCP...period. If you offer to pay the guy the same, tell him to do it in FCP or find someone that will. Who's signing the checks anyway??

- Joey



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Thanks for the technical advice.

Believe me, this can of worms has been opened so many times, everyone has botulism. What you're saying sounds like an echo..of not just me as the post supervisor, but of even the producers. Although I appreciate the intention, and agree, it's a complicated political situation, so calls to change, educate or "should" people are not what I'm looking for. Very specifically, I'm trying to find out the mechanics of possible workflows--difficult or no. I know I'm in for an unnecessary headache, I just want to mitigate it.

Right now, I'm starting to believe this is barely possible. If it were inconcieveable, impossible, then I'd have some reason to negotiate.

So far I've had some good results discussing things with Wes Plate @ Automatic Duck, Jaime Fowler of Avid Bootcamp and Moviola repute, a few techs at VARs..and all the input here. Thanks for that.



Post Edited (08-18-06 13:40)

Hi David,

Guess I'm the sole dissenter here. If the editor feels more comfortable on his Avid and this is the editor that the producer and director want to work with, by all means don't force FCP on the editor.

I've worked on a few Avid/FCP projects and it isn't really all that difficult. Certainly less difficult than dealing with the frustration of trying to work with an unfamiliar system and dealing with unhappy workers.

I have a friend right now working on a production that is being edited on an Avid and conformed to HD on FCP. If you'd like to know how he is doing it, contact me through Michael Horton and I'll try to get you in touch with him.

Of course each production is somewhat different but I'll give you some tips.

It looks like you're going to master on FCP so think of the Avid as an offline editing system. This means that the Avid should get downconverted tapes with timecode windows. These are captured into the Avid and edited. Don't do anything too fancy in the Avid, reserve that for FCP because you'll be having to re-create the effects in FCP anyway.

You can export QuickTime files from Avid but you will also need to export an ALE and run them through Sebsky Tools in order to stamp the timecode into the QT clips. (I agree with Peter, Sebsky Tool won't help when going from FCP to Avid.) However, it sounds like you'll be capturing HD in FCP so you probably won't be doing this. What you will want to do is to export QT of the edited Avid sequences and use these in FCP to make sure your HD conform is in sync with the offline edit.

In order to take the Avid offline edit into FCP, I still use old fasion CMX EDLs. Newer Avids can output 24fps EDLs, but I've been able to make due with 30fps EDLs and converting with Cinema Tools. It is a little tricky at first, but if your tape names and timecodes match you should be able to reconnect. (Peter, believe me this really does work.) Of course you can also do a batch capture of the imported EDLs and this will save lots of drive space but if you go through several versions of each sequence it can get more complicated. The key is careful logging so you can find which clip matches what tape and timecode.

Sometimes you will want to send clips from FCP to Avid and back to FCP--the EDL won't be valid for these clips. What you might consider doing is to add a timecode filter and burn in a title on the clip going from FCP to the Avid so that when it comes back you can quickly identify it.

Yes, it is more work than if everyone was on the same system, but if you establish a good workflow it will get the job done. Who knows, maybe the editor will want to learn FCP once he sees what it can do--and maybe you'll learn why Avid is still the preferred choice for most studio feature films.

--Dan

Mr. Fort...I know it can be done, but it has to be done in a different way than the original poster is describing.

You can capture into FCP from a DVCPRO HD deck but use the Avid codecs for offlining. And when you edit you make sure that you only use straight cuts and dissolves. No Matte Keys, no Animattes, no specialized effects of any kind. From there you can export an EDL that you can use Automatic Duck to import into FCP (it will need to be converted from 29.97 to 23.98 with cinema tools at some point).

If you capture with FCP, send those files to an Avid for editing, edit the stuff and try to conform back you will have issues. Getting information from one machine to the other opens you to errors that just simply can be avoided by editing with one machine. But if you do straight cuts and dissolves, you will be fine. The editor will have to edit in an offline resolution (15:1) in standard def.

Avid is great...FCP is great...mixing the two is problematic. That is all. Avids are WONDERFUL when it comes to offline/online workflows and working on features. They have had 15 years to figure this out. FCP is getting better, and does quite a bit...it has mastered the "no need for offline resolution" editing and motion graphics within the application. They are both tools...different paintbrushes if you will. If you want to make certain strokes you use one brush, other strokes another...that is all. But trying to make one brush make a stroke it isn't designed to do, that is problematic.

Shane Ross wrote:

> Mr. Fort...I know it can be done, but it has to be done in a
> different way than the original poster is describing.

Yes, I'm well aware that the original post was:

[Our plan was to digitize in FCP to an Avid XXX.XXX compatible file, move the media plus EDL to the Avid. We'd love to be able to also log on FCP and then move that to the Avid too. I have a feeling the later is asking too much.]

Actually, it is fairly simple to log in FCP, export a batch capture list, convert to an ALE file and import that into the Avid. The problem is moving the media from FCP to Avid while keeping the essential meta data intact. There are ways to do it. Some studios can deliver animation and visual effects in OMF format, but the only ones I have experience with are proprietary software written by the studios' programers.

> Avid is great...FCP is great...mixing the two is problematic.
> That is all.

Both have their strengths and weaknesses and while some editors can use either one, others simply cannot adapt. In my opinion the creative talent of the crew is more important to the success of a movie than the equipment used. Using your paintbrush analogy, it isn't the brush that makes the stroke it is the artist. I wouldn't want to force a piece of gear on an editor or limit what he can do with his system of choice. (Cuts and dissolves only?)

Sure, it is ideal when everything works as advertised--lists and media move seamlessly between the offline edit and final master, but this is seldom the case even when everyone is on the same platform.

Don't get me wrong, the ideal solution to David's problem is to work with an editor that is willing to work with Final Cut Pro, but it seems that the editor of choice is set on using Avid. I've worked with both systems and have worked on productions where we had to go between the two systems and in all cases the post production crews pulled it off.

I learned editing on film using a Moviola and a tape splicer. Back then we had to mark up film with a grease pencil and hand write optical lists. So take it from a crusty old editor, just because something won't auto-assemble doesn't mean it can't be done.

--Dan

Very true that the artist, not the equipment, is the most important thing. I just don't envy the headache you will be having using htis workflow.

Why capture in FCP for the Avid? What are you gaining? Why not capture in an Avid at offline res like I suggested? Avid retains TC information...rather well. Capturing in FCP for transfer to Avid will be a very weak link in this workflow chain...IMHO.

And I learned how to edit on a KEM flatbed, then a Grass Valley...but I have moved on. I edit on an Avid rather regularly, but that is not something I'd mix with FCP, unless I offlined only using cuts and dissolves.

Just warning you. Test test and test this workflow to DEATH to make darn sure that it works the way you want it to...before you leap in head first. Dip your feet in.

Hi Dan, good to hear from you.

If the workflow is roughly like this:

Log in FCP, transfer loglist (without media) to Avid
capture downconverted HD-tapes in Avid
sync audio in Avid
Edit offline in Avid
Export video EDL from Avid
Load EDL in FCP
Capture HD in FCP from EDL and conform

then I don't see too many problems in that workflow. If David, however, really wants to load either full res HD or offline tapes in FCP, export that to Avid and send an EDL back to reconnect in FCP, I would still expect problems when reconnecting the EDL-sequence in FCP. How exactly do you get around that in your workflow?

If David just wants to load offline tapes in FCP and transfer media to Avid, I agree it is possible if you double check the TCwindowburn to the actual TC in Avid (which will be entered manually in Avid).

- Peter

Why even log in FCP? Why not do that in Avid also & skip the loglist transfer step?



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

I'm with Joe on that question.

There's some very interesing points that were brought up.

Shane wrote:
> ...I just don't envy the headache you will be
> having using htis workflow.

Peter wrote:
> ...I don't see too many problems in that workflow.

It all depends on your attitude. If you want it to fail, it will, but if you keep an open mind you'll probably find something that works fine.

I started using FCP back in the days when most editors were certain that it couldn't be used for film projects. Yet by 2000, when I was working on a Showtime movie, most of their features were edited on FCP. This also included moving a film project that was edited on an Avid into FCP for a re-cut--this wasn't much of a problem, even back then.

Shane wrote:
> Why capture in FCP for the Avid? What are you gaining? Why
> not capture in an Avid at offline res like I suggested?
Peter wrote:
> If David, however, really wants to load either full res HD or offline tapes in
> FCP, export that to Avid and send an EDL back to reconnect in FCP, I would
> still expect problems when reconnecting the EDL-sequence in FCP. How exactly
> do you get around that in your workflow?

Joe wrote:
> Why even log in FCP? Why not do that in Avid also & skip the loglist transfer step?

I also suggested capturing in the Avid at offline resolution, but let's stop and look back at David's original post:

David wrote:
> We'd love to be able to also log on FCP and then move that to the Avid too.

David is going to be involved with the final mastering of this project and he wants to make sure that the clips from the Avid are carefully logged. If this was a film project there would be telecine logs that could be used for both Avid and FCP, but it looks like this is originating on video. Logging on FCP will insure that the clips coming back from the Avid offline edit will be orgainised in a way that will make the FCP online edit as smooth as possible. Of course you can also log in Avid and transfer that into FCP but you'd have to be willing to trust the offline editor and put the burdon of careful record keeping on the creative team--that's usually not a good idea.

Shane wrote:
> Capturing in FCP for transfer to Avid will be a very weak link in this workflow
> chain...IMHO.

I've worked with tools that could take a QuickTime file and convert it to an Avid compatible OMF file. With some extra work, the meta-data in that QT file could be embedded into the OMF. In addition, when importing an OMF into the Avid, the system can transcode from HD to an offline editing resolution. True, these are proprietary programs that belong to a studio, but maybe someone has something that can do the job--Brooks Harris? Wes Plate? Anyone have an OMF or AAF or MXF solution?

Shane wrote:
> And I learned how to edit on a KEM flatbed, then a Grass
> Valley...
The equipment and techniques might be different but the philosophy hasn't changed all that much. Creative decisions are done in the offline editing stages then uprezed and improved in the online edit and finally color corrected. The offline is the thumbnail, scratch pad, sandbox (pick your favorite analogy) and it isn't always best to take effects done in an offline editing system and let the software do the translation to the final master.

Even when working with FCP to do both offline and online I've run into issues--offline frame sizes were different aspect ratios from the online frames so reposition was off, fonts didn't match and proprietary filters couldn't (or shouldn't) be moved between CPUs.

Shane wrote:
> ...but I have moved on.

So did the original poster. Hopefully David found a good solution!

Anyway, it was a good discussion and it should be put to bed. I hope that I haven't come off sounding like an Editing 101 instructor, I'm well aware of the high level of expertise of those involved in this thread, I just wanted to make sure that anyone who wanted to follow along didn't get too lost.

--Dan

I cut on AVID Adereneline at work (Lincoln Heights - ABC/Family) and I also cut at home on FCP.

Here's the workflow I use:

1] Digitize all dailies on AVID (we're shooting super 16, telecine to D5 with a DVCAM downconvert - working in a 23.98 project)

2] I export all dailies from the AVID overnight - QT files - it's a very quick process - about 300% real time

3] Export an ALE files of all dailies

4] On your FCP system, use Sebsky Tools to stripe the QT files with the tape and time code data from the ALE files. Takes about 45 seconds! Select the convert to 24 frame time code option and video standard should be 24.

5] Use Cinema Tools to conform the QT clips to 23.98 - takes about 15 seconds!

6] Import all QT files into FCP and use Media Manager to create new QT files with NTSC/DV codec - overnight batch process (make sure you have AVID QT codecs installed in your HD->Library->Quicktime - download AVID FREEDV, that will put the codecs in place)

7] Go ahead and edit on FCP in a 23.98 project with your new DV/NTSC media

To move a sequence from AVID to FCP:

1] Use AVID EDL Tool to export CMX 3600 list with 24 frames as source and record options selected. Make sure clip name comments are on!

2] Import EDL into FCP for reconnect - unique file names option off

The media will relink frame accurately.

To go the other way - FCP to AVID is a bit trickier.

1] Export CMX 3600 EDL from FCP (Clip names not necessary but won't hurt)

2] Use AVID EDL Tool to open EDL

3] From EDL Tool export EDL as a sequence to your 23.98 project

4] In the AVID project, the bin will contain the offline sequence and one offline media clip for each source tape. Each of the source clips starts at 00:00:00:00 and ends at 23:59:59:29. This is a 24 hour clip for each tape!

5] Select the source clips and export as ALE.

6] Import the ALE back into AVID and bring up the TC24 column. Enter 00:00:00:00

7] Highlight the sequnce and these new source clips and relink offline

8] Relink again to online media and bingo - you are linked frame accurately to AVID media

There a quite a few steps, granted, but it takes just minutes. The only time conuming process is media export and recompress, but the computer does all that overnight. Better than recapturing all the tapes into FCP!

Good luck - hope this helps - works for me like a charm.