Recommended camera

Hey guys.

I know this has been discussed countless times but as technology moves faster and faster I thought I'd ask again.

I just started a new job and I have been assigned the task of getting a new camera for our in-house productions. I am assuming that we will get a HDV or similar.
(I dont think anything we shoot will be broadcasted in HD yest however so it will be downconverted to PAL)

The budget would be around 10k.
I have looked into the Sony Z1P which I have used once with 35mm film lenses on.
I was not that impressed as I felt the codec was fragile and could not handle much color corrections or luma changes before braking up. The lenses worked fine but I think I could have achieved a similar result using a Canon XL1. (Perhaps I am not doing it right?)

So anyone that wants to give their opinion on the new HDV cameras from Sony or the new ones from Panasonic and JVC would be much appreciated.

I am basically looking for an al-rounder.

Cheers

well, as many here are used to my saying - SCREW HDV, its a limited use format!!!!! i call it the "8-track tape" of video.

after testing the dvcproHD format for two afternoons i was totally sold on it. the following week i sold all my SD gear (XL2, dsr1500, firestore fs4) and bought a panasonisc HVX.

it doesnt have quite the same heavy "pro-feel" that the xl2 had, (nor the same sex appeal) but the image quality is fantastic! and once i get over the culture shock of the workflow change i think ill be quite pleased.

I researched the HDV cameras well before I decided to buy the Sony HVR Z1U.

1. It shoots PAL as well as NTSC.
2. It uses Zeiss lenses -- the pictures look great.
3. It's backed up by Sony technology -- the Sony HDV tapes are excellent.
4. It's only $4,000 to $5,000 depending on what you get with it.

I bought it six months ago, and if I had to buy a camera today, it will still be the Z1.

Finally, if you get a Z1, we can compare notes :-)

ok I Gotta say the hvx is the best camera of the uner 10k group out. My school has like 12 of them now, and I plan on shooting a green screen feature wih it in about a year or so. The best part is you never have to buy another tape, weather it be a 5 doller mini dv tape, a 10 doller hdv tape a dvcpro 50 tape or a dvcprohd tape for 30 and 45 accordingly the hvx is amazing.

Reade the creative cow article on it and many more, hundreds of shooting modes. and it takes some awsome time laps stuff.

Did i mention no tapes?

After working on an HDV film for the past two weeks, I have to say I'm pretty firmly in Wayne's camp: I hate it. Clutzy, horrible and inconsistent frame motion, awkward outputting. And the natural-light stuff I saw with it looked no better than well-lit DV I've seen. That could be a DP thing, of course.


www.derekmok.com

i will yield my opinions to anyone using HDV like a traditional "film camera" who may be doing indie-feature work. and there are a number of folks doing just that.

but my work (keep in mind im in houston TX, not in LA) has me shooting a variety of styles and i need a camera that can keep up. i have used EVERY (higher-end) HDV camera out there - z1, hd100 and xl1h and none of them can handle camera motion worth a crap (i can pick out a TV spot shot in HDV a mile away just by seeing a pan), they dont do well in low light and the format as a whole is schlock with graphic overlays (another big component of my work). in fact, its the absolutely BRILLIANT way that the dvcproHD format displays alpha overlays that convinced me to adopt it

its a matter of horses for course, but if you ask me id rather up-res a well shot SD movie than EVER deal with HDV in any way at all!

Thanks guys - lots of great feedback.


" I hate it. Clutzy, horrible and inconsistent frame motion, awkward outputting. And the natural-light stuff I saw with it looked no better than well-lit DV I've seen"

-Agreed. I was a bit dissapointed myself. I have shot DV that looks better than the HDV footage I got and bear in mind I used 35mm Panovision lenses and a very good lighting guy and a great DOP. If it does not get better than that then its a bit sad. I also got heaps of artifacts and other strange color shifts. I used the ZIP.


From what i hear and read here, the panasonic DVCPRO HD seems much better and its 4:2:2 makes it usable for Green screen as well.
At this point I am leaning towards the Panasonic AG-HVX202.

Thanks again guys.

Johan, my biggest complaint with HDV was the way it handled motion pans. in my initial tests with the z1 and hd100 i set the cameras on tripods and panned with moving vehichles. both cameras had SEVERE motion "judders" on both the vehicle panned with and ridiculously on the background.

after these dismal failures, i went in search of the canon xl1h. all the test footage id seen on the web from it (did anyone else see all that bicycle footage?) had the same or worse problems. then i tested the camera for a day and sure enough - SAME THING!

i just got back in from some similar informal test shots with my HVX (sans tripod) and it looks PERFECT.

i just got back in from some similar informal test shots with my HVX (sans tripod) and it looks PERFECT."

-Good to hear. It does seem as if it superior to the rest at the moment.

i just got back in from some similar informal test shots with my HVX (sans tripod) and it looks PERFECT."

-Good to hear. It does seem as if it superior to the rest at the moment.

Johan Polhem
Motion Graphics
www.johanpolhem.com

Shot an indie feature earlier this year on Canon XLH1. Very happy with it. However, I digitize into DVCPro HD to avoid HDV editing hassles.

Don't get the Sony Z1.

Best

Harry.

PS. If you're anywhere near me (Hollywood Hills) you can totter round and fool around with the camera and check out the material we shot in March.

Thanks for the offer and advice Harry.
I have decided at least NOT to get a Sony HDV. Its likely gonna be a panasonic.

Unfortunately I'm nowhere near you but I will try to get a hold of a camera here to test shoot.

Johan Polhem
Motion Graphics
www.johanpolhem.com

Hey Johan, I have an HVX and it's a great camera. However, you ought to try some comparative testing if you can.

The HVX has a slightly softer image than the others, especially the Canon. Is slightly noisier in low light situations and is generally the slowest of the bunch, needing more light.

Just to satisfy yourself test as many as you can.
The HVX has an amazing image especially in the colorimetry, but if you are really looking to get an HD image as sharp as you can get it. you might look hard at the Canon.

As for me, I am sticking with the HVX. Great picture and great post workflow with DVCPro.

harry323 said "...Don't get the Sony Z1. "

Can you expand on that a bit...like...why?

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Hi Johan.

I'm not a pro "video" guy, but I work with a lot of people who are. Here's what I've heard.

(1) HDV has problems - especially if you edit with it - You'll see the "artifacts" as you edit, which will drive you crazy - 'cause you'll know what to look for in playback after seeing it a million times at varying speeds.

(2) HDV source material, when played back in the finished production, looks fantastic to most people who haven't been throgh the editing process on the material. That's how mpeg compression (used by hdv) works - it throws away stuff you won't notice in order to keep data rate/file size down.

(3) I have the FX1, and I think it's great - but, I'm not a Pro. (you can see some amatuer shot and edited footage in HD at www.hd-vo.com )

(4) Many people who edit any HD stuff don't realize that their machine isn't fast enough to process and play back HD material without adding it's own "artifacts" to the played back material.

(5) If you're playing back 24P material an any monitor with a scanning rate other than multiples of 24 (48, 96) the scan-rate conversion process will add all sorts of jerkiness to the playback - many people think that's an inherent problem with 24P HD/HDV, etc., but in reality, it's the playback system.

(6) Camcorders that are not HDV will cost you a lot more than HDV machines.

(7) Everybody has a different opinion on particular HDV/HD camera systems.

(8) It would be extremely wise to rent the system you're thinking of buying for a day or two. It would be even wiser to rent several, and compare. Your opinion of which is the best will be different from the next person's.

(9) The new forum sofware is fantastic.

I'm shooting a feature with the Z1 and I continue to get great footage. It's been almost a year now since I got it and I'm happy with the Z1. I read everything here with a lot of interest. I don't have stock in Sony :-) but I think it's a matter of how you shoot and what type of films you want to make. The Z1 is a very cost effective and versatile tool. I can shoot projects in PAL for foreign release. I can record back to the Z1 projects I've edited on FCP5 and then up-res them to full HD. The lens is a Zeiss lens and it's better than any other lens on all the other cameras; none of them come with Zeiss lenses. I've used a lot of other cameras when I was shooting educational video for the university. I don't like Canons and Panasonics; I've had trouble with them -- after a few years problems emerge and they can't be fixed. It's expensive to repair these cameras; they're flimsy and not worth the expense. But this might be my 35mm bias. I still use the Arri 2c for serious feature work. You can pick up an Arri from 50 years back and shoot a movie with it -- no problem.

The Z1 seems to be better in this regard. I took my camera to the Sony repair Center -- it was still under warranty -- they fixed it for me. I had used a wireless mic and had jacked up the volume too high, so one of the XLR inputs was dead. The technician from Sony called me and told me about the reset button. That's all it was; there was no damage. Good service is important and Sony is delivering it.

It may say Zeiss on it, but it's a Sony built lens made under the supervision of Zeiss. Similarly the Leica lenses that Panasonic use are made under the supervision of Leica. Canon do make their own lenses however, and the JVC uses a cheap Fujinon.

All cameras in that price range are cheap and plasticy though - you get what you pay for.

[www.nattress.com] - Plugins for FCP-X

Hail Grafixjoe, O Wise One.

When the Sony camera first appeared at DV Expo in LA I tottered down there and spent about an hour futzing around with it. I found the 24p setting to be strangely jerky and somehow uneven. I tried all sorts of different shutter settings etc. I also found the Sony people obnoxious, unhelpful and unwilling to assist me in putting the camera through its paces.

However, it was mainly my perception that there was something wierd and jerky about the 24p which makes me advise not to buy the camera.

Through later following what wiser folk than me have said in different postings all over the place, there is something about the way that the camera produces this 24p effect that does in fact cause a perception of an uneven frame rate.

By the way, as an aside, I also wouldn't advise anyone to buy the Panasonic DVX 200 either which I actually had on order. I went to a demo at Birns and Sawyer where the Panasonic woman gave a demo and everyone was blown away, and then the Canon people dragged on their XLH1 and everyone was doubly blown away by the superior picture quality. That's largely why I cancelled my Panasonic order and bought the Canon.

On this latter point, I was later greatly relieved, because Panasonic could neither deliver the camera in a timely manner, despite my having been on the waiting list at number 14 in LA, nor could they deliver the 8 gig memory cards. Perhaps things have changed, but it didn't look too good a prospect to me.

Starting to ramble here ...

Would you like to hear about my 16 year old mutt Henry's arthritis?

Best

Harry.

The best workflow for HDV is: get it the hell out of HDV as soon as possible! Before it hits the FCP timeline! I have seen excellent broadcast results transferred to DVCPro and *then* to edit.

The Z1 is great. I got it's little bother, the HVR-A1U, and I'm loving it. Like the Z1 it has three personalities: HDV, DVCAM, and DV. You can also live-downconvert from HDV to DVCAM or DV while capturing. Guess which personality I'm avoiding? ;-)

This is a CMOS imager (like the upcoming Red camera, which will also be a single-chip) and I am getting very good DVCAM with it.

It has an incredible range of pro features for a camera less than US$3K. I encountered only two serious issues:

1) it's a newbie issue, but don't use auto-focus in interviews because the camera may decide it likes the background better-- even if you've done closeup focus check and zoom back and your subject remains central to the comp! Guilty as charged. Don't rely on the LCD for fine focus.

2) Watch your source stock. I used DVCAM 40N cassettes in this camera and shot DV mode for Digital Production Buzz's video podcast of SIGGRAPH. Both myself and chief BuZZmeister and editor Phil Hodgetts later noticed the flashing timecode on our DV playback decks, which can be hell to batch capture. Kudos to Phil for dealing with it. If you're shooting DV in the A1U, stick to premium MiniDV cassettes or you may get the TC blinkies, although the image and audio appear to be fine.

Shooting DVCAM on DVCAM cassettes delivers rock steady timecode. Now I wonder if other Sony cameras exhibit this anomaly? Must be that the DVCAM stock is too robust for the transport at slow DV speed? Doesn't give a full head wrap? Dunno, I don't engineer. But Page 3 of the A1U manual says only that Sony "recommends" DVCAM for DVCAM mode, and MiniDV for DV mode. When the Sony support guy called back he confirmed "Hey, you did the right thing, used a good stock. What can I tell you...?" There is no explicit prohibition. Yet.

I had heard and can confirm this camera's imager is challenged at very low light levels. It gets noisy. I used a cheap booster LED on the camera on the SIGGRAPH floor.

All in all, not too bad for a lightweight camera and an overweight cameraman doing everything at once! (Which is one reason I'm doing video, to get out and burn more calories. I used to be a Greek God, you know.)

See the growing inventory of HVR-A1U work over at www.digitalproductionbuzz.com. Also, I just completed a conference room nterview without lghting assist in a flourescent/daylight-mix conference room. Gorgeous. I'm cutting that now, it'll be uploaded to DPB soon.

A1U's not for everyone, but it's perfect for me.

- Loren
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just so i dont come off as a blinded polyanna, here are some things i DONT like about my HVX:

1. the totally illogical random gibberish way it names (numbers) clips. its almost like they just ran out of time to work out that feature of the camera? makes software app like HD logger gold a real necessity - and for $699 more dolars... this has been a VERY serious culture adjustment for me!

2. manual lens controls feel pretty consumerish and plasticy

3. audio meters are "laggy"

4. battery attachment is very poorly designed and there is already a good bit of reports that the fastening tabs ARE prone to breaking off... actually from a "form factor" (HATE that term) standpoint, i think the overall camera is poorly designed.

5. i swear to God im counting the days until i lose (misplace and forget) a damned P2 card somewhere!!!!!

i never thought id say this, but i really do miss the feel of my XL2. it just felt more like a "tool" rather than a bunch of technology crammed into a plastic box...

Just posted a link to an HVX200 HDD recorder in development that use the P2 slot, giving all the HVX options unlike the firestore:

[www.spec-comm.com]

Could make documentary recording in HD a reality with the HVX200

Ben



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

interesting. wonder what effect the fan noise and possible vibration might have on shooting?

Hi, loren,

Interesting about the A1U. I almost bought one; it looked like a good deal. But in the final analysis, I wasn't comfortable with HDV's MPEG compression and the 12 (or 6) frame GOP type of recording. It makes me nervous, considering I have definitely had tape trouble in the past with those little mechanisms and 1/4" tape. Doing HD on that tape is just asking too much of it.

So I went with an HVX200. Love it. Fabulous image when properly lit; definitely noisy in low light, but overall the multitude of features make it a value that's unbeatable. C'mon - true slow motion in HD at this price point? Getouddahere...

I'm getting used to the P2 workflow (which is NOT a timesaver), but never will i buy tape again (I hope), and longing for cheaper P2 cards.

For me this is a killer camera.

wayne granzin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> just so i dont come off as a blinded polyanna,
> here are some things i DONT like about my HVX:
>
> 1. the totally illogical random gibberish way it
> names (numbers) clips. its almost like they just
> ran out of time to work out that feature of the
> camera? makes software app like HD logger gold a
> real necessity - and for $699 more dolars... this
> has been a VERY serious culture adjustment for
> me!
P2 Log from Imagine Products is only $99.00 and works great
>
> 2. manual lens controls feel pretty consumerish
> and plasticy
> Seems to work fine for me. Not as professional as a broadcast lens but as good as the DVX lens, which I always loved.

> 3. audio meters are "laggy"
> That's because you are monitoring the recorded signal and not the "live" signal. Once you change it in the menu, there is no lag.

> 4. battery attachment is very poorly designed and
> there is already a good bit of reports that the
> fastening tabs ARE prone to breaking off...
While I too have read all of the complaints of users who have experienced this, I have not experienced any isues yet. Make sure you take the battery off of the camera when carrying it in a case.

> actually from a "form factor" (HATE that term)
> standpoint, i think the overall camera is poorly
> designed.
Agreed, it's a bit of a kludge although as a DVX user, it is REALLY easy to step to the HVX, it works about the same way for most functions
>
> 5. i swear to God im counting the days until i
> lose (misplace and forget) a damned P2 card
> somewhere!!!!!
Paint an orange stripe on them and keep track of them, they are way too expensive to lose.
>
> i never thought id say this, but i really do miss
> the feel of my XL2. it just felt more like a
> "tool" rather than a bunch of technology crammed
> into a plastic box...
Different strokes for sure, the Canons havee always been an ergonomic nightmare to me, there are stupid llittle buttons hidden everywhere and under covers. The balance on all of them is really bizarre to me.

There definitely are some PITA things about the HVX but overall, it's a great camera for the money. Our experience here with HDV with the Sonys and the Canons hass been nightmarish. We now layoff all HDV to a DVCProHD deck before ingest. Makes for twice the work so that workflow sucks. But OTOH, the P2 workflow, for how we shoot, also sucks. We shoot documentary format mostly and we are now hooking up the HVX to a 1200 deck for interviews to shoot directly to tape because archiving the huge amounts of media we shoot from P2 is a nightmare, we have a full time P2 technician and he can't even keep up with the the archiving.

I think HD will be a few more years before it works as well and as easily as DV did.

Best,

Dan

Wow.

Thats a lot of feedback.

There seems to be as many opinions as there are posters which is great.
I would have loved to test a few different cameras as was recommended here.
Unfortunately I had 24 hours to decide on the camera to buy.
(Dont ask me why the account people could not wait)

I put in an order for the HVX202.
The main reason being i want to be flexible and be able to shoot green screen as well and since it has a 4:2:2 color sampling it will work better than the HDV which is 4:1:1.

I hear what some are saying about the camera being "clunky" and plastic and not very logically designed in terms of all the bits and pieces that are all over the place.
I guess it will always come down to getting what you pay for. The camera is only about $6k plus the memory cards so it it very cheap for the resolution you get.

Thanks again everyone, its been very helpful.
Perhaps this thread should be saved in FAQ or similar as it does contain lost of good info and opinions from a variety of professionals.

Wow.

Thats a lot of feedback.

There seems to be as many opinions as there are posters which is great.
I would have loved to test a few different cameras as was recommended here.
Unfortunately I had 24 hours to decide on the camera to buy.
(Dont ask me why the account people could not wait)

I put in an order for the HVX202.
The main reason being i want to be flexible and be able to shoot green screen as well and since it has a 4:2:2 color sampling it will work better than the HDV which is 4:1:1.

I hear what some are saying about the camera being "clunky" and plastic and not very logically designed in terms of all the bits and pieces that are all over the place.
I guess it will always come down to getting what you pay for. The camera is only about $6k plus the memory cards so it it very cheap for the resolution you get.

Thanks again everyone, its been very helpful.
Perhaps this thread should be saved in FAQ or similar as it does contain lost of good info and opinions from a variety of professionals.

Johan Polhem
Motion Graphics
www.johanpolhem.com

wow dan, i wasnt expecting to be quoted, i was just looking for nit picky stuff just to show a counterpoint...

but on the topic of the p2 log from imagine, i was looking at that a few days ago but from what i saw, if i want to be able to rename clips id have to buy their HD log verison. maybe i read it wrong, but thats what i got from their features chart.

do you use p2 log? and if so - how does it fit into your workflow

i looked at p2genie as well. its only $40 but i didnt see anything it did that i couldnt do via drag and drop (aside from erasing the card)