Log, Capture, Drag to Timeline, Audio turns to White Noise

Hello,

FCP 4.5, G5, OSX 10.3

Just like in the subject line, once I capture and set the clip (appx. 30 minutes) in the timeline, the audio (which was fine throughout the logging process) is nothing but white noise. Where'd it go? How can I get it back? I've tried relogging and recapturing, but the same thing happens. Is this a "trash your preferences and start again" issue?

Thanks!
Dave

You're missing some important information. *How* did you capture the clip? Kona II card, FireWire DV??

If you double click on the clip in the bin, it should appear in the viewer window. Do an Edit, Item Properties and see what it says. If it doesn't say the audio is 48 KHz sample rate and 16-bit stereo, then you have a wacky audio track.

You can export right from the viewer. Select audio-only and convert it to 48KHz/16/Stereo AIFF and then reimport.

Koz

Sorry... FireWire DV. However, it has only recently started doing this. On my current project, every tape does the same thing.

I'll give that a try.

Thanks Koz!

I can hear the other people on the forum screaming at me to tell you to trash your Final Cut preferences. It's possible that even though you *think* your timelilne is set to DV, NTSC, etc, etc, the preferences may think something else and giving you a trashed timeline.

You did check the TimeLine/Sequence settings, right? I don't know of any settings that will give you white noise instead of your sound track, but hey.

Koz

TL/Seq settings are correct.

Anyway, I just tried capturing a previous tape again, and this time it has 8 minutes of the recorded audio, but then mid-sentence (inbetween 2 frames) it jumps to white noise.

Guess I'll look up the Trash Pref's post, execute, and see what happens.

Dave

<<<Guess I'll look up the Trash Pref's post, execute, and see what happens. >>>


Don't bother. Preference settings affect everything at all times. They don't come and go.

You're hearing this noise out the computer speakers, right--or speakers that are connected to the headphone output?

-or-

Are you listening to a deck or camcorder connected to a FireWire port?

Can you play a commercial movie DVD OK?


I'm goiing for the wacked-out crazy. You do not have a normal problem.

There is a way to look at the audio waveforms inside the timeline. Do they go to white noise too? You can also double click the timeline and look at the waveforms inside the viewer window. White noise looks like an even block of audio with little or no variation. This is especially obvious if your regular sound is a human voice.

Koz

Kozikowski Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> <<>>
>
>
> Don't bother. Preference settings affect
> everything at all times. They don't come and go.
>
> You're hearing this noise out the computer
> speakers, right--or speakers that are connected to
> the headphone output? Headphone, and/or video monitor speakers
>
> -or-
>
> Are you listening to a deck or camcorder
> connected to a FireWire port? MiniDV in deck, plays and sounds fine the whole time I'm logging (via firewire).
>
> Can you play a commercial movie DVD OK? Yes
>
>
> I'm goiing for the wacked-out crazy. You do not
> have a normal problem.
>
> There is a way to look at the audio waveforms
> inside the timeline. Do they go to white noise
> too? Yes. They go from normal waveforms of a human voice to a max'd out solid block waveform. It's what white noise looks like. You can also double click the timeline and
> look at the waveforms inside the viewer window.
> White noise looks like an even block of audio with
> little or no variation. This is especially
> obvious if your regular sound is a human voice.
>
> Koz

By the way, I tried an export conversion to an aif file and what it is in the audio is what gets exported and converted. In other words, same thing.

We're really close to stumping the band, here. I gotta go back and read all that again.

Picture is OK through all of this, right? The audio distortion (noise) doesn't seem to have any pattern to it--it arrives when it feels like it?

Koz

I think you missed a step. What happens if you double click one of the odd clips in the bin and do an INFO on it? (I think Edit, Item Properties) What does it say about the audio?

The clips play just fine in the bin and Viewer, right, they're damaged when you try to drop them into a timeline?

If you keep deleting the clip and re-dropping it onto the timeline, does the damage happen at the same place every time? Alternately, if you drop the *same* clip into the timeline multiple times one after the other, does the dirtortion keep happening at the same place in the story?

Have you restarted the Mac from power off?


<<<it has only recently started doing this.>>>

That's the classic Drive Filling Up problem. "We didn't change anything and now it doesn't work." I don't think that's what's wrong, but oh, why not. Do you have at least 10% free space on **every** drive the machine can see--including the System drive?

Koz

> Yes. They go from normal waveforms of a human voice to a max'd out solid block waveform.
> It's what white noise looks like.

If the waveforms look like that, then it's almost certain that your sound has been captured in that screwed-up way. You'll probably have to recapture.

Open the clip in QuickTime Player. Does it sound like white noise?

I've also seen a DV issue before where the audio is so hugely loud that you need to take it *really* far down, like -16dB to -24dB, before it starts sounding like dialogue again. Have you tried this?

Pick a section of your clip that's doing the white-noise thing, recapture it from tape, twice in a row. Does the noise happen in the same way, at the same points?

I'm also thinking you may have bungled levels. You say it sounds "fine" while logging and capturing. At which level are you monitoring the sound during this process? Audio outputs from the deck? Headphones? Play your tape back and look at the sound meters. Are they going into the red?

> On my current project, every tape does the same thing.

Could it just be that on your current project, somebody bumped the input controls on the camera or mixer and now all your tape audio is seeing red?


www.derekmok.com

Kozikowski Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We're really close to stumping the band, here. I
> gotta go back and read all that again.
>
> Picture is OK through all of this, right? Yes, the picture is fine The
> audio distortion (noise) doesn't seem to have any
> pattern to it--it arrives when it feels like it? No, it appears to "arrive" at the same place every time I log and capture. I tried capturing via the camera instead of the deck, and it did the same thing at approximately the same place.
>
> Koz

Kozikowski Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you missed a step. What happens if you
> double click one of the odd clips in the bin and
> do an INFO on it? (I think Edit, Item Properties)
> What does it say about the audio? Sorry, I did. I'll get back to you on this one.
>
> The clips play just fine in the bin and Viewer,
> right, they're damaged when you try to drop them
> into a timeline? No. There's white noise in the viewer too.
>
> If you keep deleting the clip and re-dropping it
> onto the timeline, does the damage happen at the
> same place every time? Yes Alternately, if you drop
> the *same* clip into the timeline multiple times
> one after the other, does the dirtortion keep
> happening at the same place in the story? Yes
>
> Have you restarted the Mac from power off? Yes
>
>
> <<>>
>
> That's the classic Drive Filling Up problem. "We
> didn't change anything and now it doesn't work."
> I don't think that's what's wrong, but oh, why
> not. Do you have at least 10% free space on
> **every** drive the machine can see--including the
> System drive? Yes, but I am getting close to that on two of my six drives (which would include the system drive). But the drive I'm working on now is only about half full. So, I tried another one about one-third full, and it did the same thing.
>
> Koz

derekmok Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Yes. They go from normal waveforms of a human
> voice to a max'd out solid block waveform.
> > It's what white noise looks like.
>
> If the waveforms look like that, then it's almost
> certain that your sound has been captured in that
> screwed-up way. You'll probably have to
> recapture. Been there, done that. Same issue.
>
> Open the clip in QuickTime Player. Does it sound
> like white noise? Haven't tried that yet.
>
> I've also seen a DV issue before where the audio
> is so hugely loud that you need to take it
> *really* far down, like -16dB to -24dB, before it
> starts sounding like dialogue again. Have you
> tried this? Yes. There's no dialog there. Just softer white noise.
>
> Pick a section of your clip that's doing the
> white-noise thing, recapture it from tape, twice
> in a row. Does the noise happen in the same way,
> at the same points? Yes. Same thing, same time, whether it's drive A or B, via deck or camera.
>
> I'm also thinking you may have bungled levels.
> You say it sounds "fine" while logging and
> capturing. At which level are you monitoring the
> sound during this process? Audio outputs from the
> deck? Headphones? I'm listening to audio from the video monitor. Same thing with headphones.Play your tape back and look
> at the sound meters. Are they going into the
> red? Yes. They peak and remain 100% red with no fluctuation.
>
> > On my current project, every tape does the same
> thing.
>
> Could it just be that on your current project,
> somebody bumped the input controls on the camera
> or mixer and now all your tape audio is seeing
> red? No, I was standing at the camera the whole time monitoring audio with headphones. The entire tape is fine whether played back through a deck or camera.

OK, *third* time:

Double click one of the problem clips in the bin so it appears in the Viewer--not the Canvas.

While the Viewer is active, does it sound OK? Open the sound tab so you can see the waveform. Is the damage there?

Koz

<<> System drive? Yes, but I am getting close to that on two of my six drives (which would include the system drive). But the drive I'm working on now is only about half full. So, I tried another one about one-third full, and it did the same thing. >>>

Dualing posts. What fun.

That doesn't count. Any drive filling up on the system anywhere will cause problems. What happens if you disconnect **all** your drives and capture a segment to the System Drive?

Koz

Kozikowski Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK, *third* time:
>
> Double click one of the problem clips in the bin
> so it appears in the Viewer--not the Canvas.
>
> While the Viewer is active, does it sound OK? Only up to the point where it "jumps" to white noise.
> Open the sound tab so you can see the waveform.
> Is the damage there? Yes. It is a "normal" waveform up until the frame it becomes white noise.
>
> Koz

So you never did get a working capture. This isn't a TimeLine problem. See:

<<<That doesn't count. Any drive filling up on the system anywhere will cause problems. What happens if you disconnect **all** your drives and capture a segment to the System Drive? >>>

If there isn't room to do that, throw stuff out or move stuff until there is. Full drives become magic and do unstable things--particularly if that drive happens to be the System Drive.

Koz

Kozikowski Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> <<> System drive? Yes, but I am getting close to
> that on two of my six drives (which would include
> the system drive). But the drive I'm working on
> now is only about half full. So, I tried another
> one about one-third full, and it did the same
> thing. >>>
>
> Dualing posts. What fun. :-)
>
> That doesn't count. Any drive filling up on the
> system anywhere will cause problems. Really? The one I keep music on (160g) only has about 2g left on it. Another (200g) has about 6g left.What happens
> if you disconnect **all** your drives and capture
> a segment to the System Drive? Haven't tried that yet. I'll let you know
>
> Koz

> That doesn't count. Any drive filling up on the
> system anywhere will cause problems. Really? The one I keep music on (160g) only has
> about 2g left on it. Another (200g) has about 6g left.

Kaboom. Not only are you going to experience problems, but you are risking killing both those drives. You need to free up about 18GB on the 160GB drive, and 14-20GB on the 200GB drive. Filling up drives up to the extent you're describing is suicide.


www.derekmok.com

Good problem. At first I was going to suggest testing your audio playback with Viewer>External Video set to OFF-- assumingit's on ALL FRAMES.

But now I wonder, have you tried changing the FireWire cable?

- Loren
Today's FCP 5 keytip:
Preview effects sections with Option-P or Option-Backslash!

The FCP 5 KeyGuide?: a professional placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central:
www.neotrondesign.com

OSX doesn't see hard drives as spinning platters. It sees them as extensions of internal memory.

OSX is constantly managing the information on all its drives and if one of them fills up anywhere in the system, the management cannot happen correctly and the system--the whole system--starts to act strangely.

It doesn't always break the same way, either. It's a complete crap shoot what breaks and when which is what's so darn much fun about this problem. Seasoned UNIX System People learn to recognize patterns of failure, but they also recognize when there is no pattern to the failures and they start looking at drive space.

Or so I'm told.

Koz

Kozikowski Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OSX doesn't see hard drives as spinning platters.
> It sees them as extensions of internal memory.
>
> OSX is constantly managing the information on all
> its drives and if one of them fills up anywhere in
> the system, the management cannot happen correctly
> and the system--the whole system--starts to act
> strangely.
>
Okay, I threw out gigs and gigs of stuff, and all my hard drives have anywhere from 40 to 140G available. My system drive has 62G available. I trashed my preferences and setup FCP again. I threw away the old project and started new. Just captured that tape again, and BAM! white noise! I'm dead in the water...


> It doesn't always break the same way, either.
> It's a complete crap shoot what breaks and when
> which is what's so darn much fun about this
> problem. Seasoned UNIX System People learn to
> recognize patterns of failure, but they also
> recognize when there is no pattern to the failures
> and they start looking at drive space.
>
> Or so I'm told.
>
> Koz

Loren Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But now I wonder, have you tried changing the
> FireWire cable?
>
Not sure what good that would do since the first 8 minutes of the clip are fine. After that, nothing but white noise.

derekmok Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Open the clip in QuickTime Player. Does it sound
> like white noise?
Yes
>
> Pick a section of your clip that's doing the
> white-noise thing, recapture it from tape, twice
> in a row. Does the noise happen in the same way,
> at the same points? Yes, same place.
>
> I'm also thinking you may have bungled levels.
> You say it sounds "fine" while logging and
> capturing. At which level are you monitoring the
> sound during this process? Audio outputs from the
> deck? Headphones? Play your tape back and look
> at the sound meters. Are they going into the
> red? Yes, max'd red.

YoWoVi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kozikowski Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think you missed a step. What happens if you
> > double click one of the odd clips in the bin
> and
> > do an INFO on it? (I think Edit, Item
> Properties)
> > <b>What does it say about the audio?</b> Sorry, I did.
> I'll get back to you on this one. Audio says A1 + A2, Mono Mix, 48009.1Hz, 16-bit Integer
> >

derekmok Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > That doesn't count. Any drive filling up on the
>
> > system anywhere will cause problems. Really? The
> one I keep music on (160g) only has
> > about 2g left on it. Another (200g) has about 6g
> left.
>
> Kaboom. Not only are you going to experience
> problems, but you are risking killing both those
> drives. You need to free up about 18GB on the
> 160GB drive, and 14-20GB on the 200GB drive.
> Filling up drives up to the extent you're
> describing is suicide.
I have anywhere from 62GB to 150GB avail on all hard drives.

Pardon my puzzled look.....


--The show tapes may have funny levels, but they sound OK with headphones connected to the deck or camcorder. Certainly usable in a show.

--Final Cut will not have anything to do with capture of these tapes past certain magic places that remain constant through multiple captures.

--The picture apparently is not damaged at all.

--The damage always sounds like the same thing. White noise.

--This show is the first time this has ever happened.

--You trashed the Final Cut preferences.

--You cleaned out your hard drives to better than minimun spec.

--The captures appear to be of the correct standard--48/16.

Did I miss anything?

Did you know if the same camera produced all these tapes?


I didn't send you down the QuickTime path yet.

Close everything.

Disconnect the whole pile of external drives.

Open QuickTime Pro. File, New Video Recording, Device Native.

Connect the camcorder FireWire. Use one of the funny tapes set about a minute before the damage.

Press play on the camcorder. You should see the show in the QuickTime Preview Window. Press QuickTime record before the damage.

Did you record the damage?

Koz

> I'm also thinking you may have bungled levels.
> You say it sounds "fine" while logging and
> capturing. At which level are you monitoring the
> sound during this process? Audio outputs from the
> deck? Headphones? Play your tape back and look
> at the sound meters. Are they going into the
> red?
- Yes, max'd red.

I think that's the problem. Just because you can play it back doesn't mean you can capture or record it. The consistency of the white-noise problem you're describing makes me think that your sound, while still somewhat audible, is blowing up any digital device that's trying to interpret it.

Perhaps you need to transfer the audio to a target tape using analog cables, while adjusting input levels to a more acceptable level. Try one tape like that, maybe transferring it to DigiBeta
using analog cables (FireWire won't allow you to adjust anything), then using the input levels on the DigiBeta deck to reset your levels.

Kick the sound recordist's ass.


www.derekmok.com

<<<Just because you can play it back doesn't mean you can capture or record it.>>>

It should.

The D/A converters inside the camcorder should be working exactly like the digital processors anywhere else in the chain. Overloaded digital audio does not turn magically into white noise. It either sounds like the original track grossly distorted or pops a couple of times and stops dead.


First, I agree that the sound recordist should be whipped soundly (so to speak).

We are presented with two directly contradictory clues. I don't believe Mini DV has a cue track, right? There is no audio track put there solely for cueing? Given that, If you can hear it on headphones , you should be able to capture it. There is, in my estimation, no middle ground.

We're talking about recording the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and capturing John Philip Soussa in the edit bay. Or better yet, hearing MTC in the headphones and capturing JPS. Doesn't happen.

I can easily generate scenes where a tape like that could be made. For example, there are mixers what have switchable mic/line levels. If that switch is defective, it could switch between different levels on the fly in the middle of the performance. That tape would be almost impossible to capture and would generate sound that to the untrained ear would sound like pure white noise. ***But it would sound like that in the headphones.***

We're still in Stump The Band territory here. I can think of no way to break the system that would produce these symptoms.

Even worse, I would want to do hands-on which I can't and I'd want to do experiments with our camcorders which I can't because I'm on vacation.

I'm out of ideas. You have an unusuable show and the next addition to your skill set is telling the client that there is no show--unless you can rescue it with the analog transfer technique--see Mok. Even at that, the process will triple your workload and you may still not have a show.

Koz