HD CRT Monitor Suggestions Wanted

Interesting...Neither Sony nor Panasonic list CRT style monitors on their websites. They are all LCD. JVC has one called the DT-V1710CGU Looks like it could be a decent monitor to color correct for both SD and HD production. B&H has igekami but I've never seen these in action. Anyone else have any suggestions? Thanks.

-J1

Look for the Sony PVM-14L5. It has been discontinued so B&H wont' carry it. But look for it. It is a multiformat monitor that does HD and only costs $1500.

Unless you need it to do HD SDI...then it costs $3000.

The CRTs are being phased out - which is a terrible idea IMHO. I still don't get how we are going to be able to colour correct on a monitor that loses colour information when you don't look at it dead straight on. <<Rant mode disengaged>>

Ikegami is a good well known brand.

I have the DT-V1910CGU 19" version and its extremely good quality.

Ben



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Jude Cotter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The CRTs are being phased out - which is a
> terrible idea IMHO. I still don't get how we are
> going to be able to colour correct on a monitor
> that loses colour information when you don't look
> at it dead straight on. <>

I guess you guys still don't get it! What devices are we watching television or movies on in the present and more so in the future? LCD-DLP displays!

How can you accurately color correct on a CRT when the white and black levels on LCD-DLP are all over the place. NTSC CRT monitors were the right thing for CRT based televison but that is changing very rapidly. We may find the need to color correct on a DLP and a LCD monitor of some sort to make the best balance between both.

Face it, we live in a world where everything is "dumbing down". The new ATSC standards are to transmit MPEG-2 video and AAC audio over the air starting sometime in 2007 or 2009, or whenever. We listen to compressed music, we watch compressed video on DVD's. We are accepting less and calling it more when it comes to entertainment.

John, I see your point, but I don't agree with the conclusion you draw. What you're talking about is like saying "People listen to music on iPods, so we should get the smallest, crappiest headphone buds while mixing albums".

We, the people who create the entertainment, need absolute fidelity when monitoring our work *so that* when that work gets put onto an unreliable device -- LCD displays, iPod buds, crazy-bass-boosted car stereos, trebly laptop speakers, TVs that try to enhance fleshtones for us -- it doesn't get ripped to shreds.


www.derekmok.com

"How can you accurately color correct on a CRT when the white and black levels on LCD-DLP are all over the place. "

---

This doesn't make sense. How can you accurately color correct without an accurate monitor? You're saying we should color correct on monitors that are all over the place, since that's what people will be watching it on? Great idea (note sarcasm).

Why not color correct on a black and white monitor? You'd probably be more accurate. I understand where you're coming from, but it's wrong, all wrong. Color correct on an accurate NTSC CRT monitor. Then CHECK your program on a couple different sets. I use my plasma at home and an old 20" Trinitron from the early 80's.

You want your program colors to match the rest of the programming on television. This requires a properly calibrated NTSC CRT monitor (just like the rest of the post houses are using).

Think of it this way. I can hardly stand to watch television at my grandparents' house. They have a beautiful 35" Trinitron, but they like it with the tint adjusted purple. So everyone's face looks purple, with nice green highlights. That looks normal to them. Every show looks like that, and they are fine with it. That is normal to them. They consider it color corrected.

Now, say your show comes on and it's been color corrected on a random LCD screen. The blacks are all over the place, the whites are pretty good, but you can't quite get the colors dialed in right, either. Get it as close as you can. A little purplish, but not too bad.

Your show comes on their TV, and all of a sudden, I think it looks great! But they don't like the way it looks. The people don't look purple enough...kinda greenish. Where's the remote?

You see, it doesn't matter what the end audience is watching on. They are obviously used to it. What matters is that your show doesn't pop out as the wrong color to the end audience because it doesn't look like the rest of the programming.

Whatever the consumer's television looks like, that's what they're used to, that's how they like it. But if your program was made to look normal to you on a set that looks like a consumer's, it's going to look like crap.

travis ballstadt
www.thrillcateditorial.com

G5DP2.5ghz, 4.5gbRAM, 2TB external SATA, Panasonic AJ-D455, G4PB1ghz, 15", 1gbRAM

derekmok Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John, I see your point, but I don't agree with the
> conclusion you draw. What you're talking about is
> like saying "People listen to music on iPods, so
> we should get the smallest, crappiest headphone
> buds while mixing albums".

Derek,

When working on audio,. for instance, most producers will finalize a song for the crappiest car speakers or headphones because that is the audience this song will be played to. Video is not that much different if the CRT is so very necesary that we perfectly correct for the NTSC phospor, why then are all the manufacturers of productions monitors dropping their CRT line?

We are used to a certain level of professionalism, but check out YouTube or any number of sites that are displaying the MP3 of video. it's being accepted as "good enough" by the masses. Check out the iPod Video!

So, you believe that an LCD or DLP television is going to accurately reproduce NTSC phospor colors accurately, so we might as well color correct to them?

Like i said "You guys just don't get it!"

John Foley Wrote:


> When working on audio,. for instance, most
> producers will finalize a song for the crappiest
> car speakers or headphones because that is the
> audience this song will be played to.

Right, they finalize it. They don't mix it and master it. They mix & master to get the best possible sound. Then they listen to it on cheap speakers and make sure the bass isn't completely out of line.

> We are used to a certain level of professionalism,
> but check out YouTube or any number of sites that
> are displaying the MP3 of video. it's being
> accepted as "good enough" by the masses. Check out
> the iPod Video!

If I ever turn on my TV at home and see nothing but YouTube quality video, I will sell it and stop watching. Anyone using YouTube as the mark of quality when producing for broadcast television needs to look for a new line of work.

>
> So, you believe that an LCD or DLP television is
> going to accurately reproduce NTSC phospor colors
> accurately, so we might as well color correct to
> them?

Again, I color correct on an NTSC CRT monitor, check it on my plasma. Many times I decide to pull back the saturation or bring the levels down a bit, because my plasma wigs out a bit when they're too high. It still looks good after the tweaks, and it now will look just as good on a wider variety of sets.

The biggest thing is consistency between programming. There HAS TO be a constant that everyone works to. With inconsitent monitors being used for color correction, that constant is nullified and television programming quality will go to pot.

>
> Like i said "You guys just don't get it!"

travis ballstadt
www.thrillcateditorial.com

G5DP2.5ghz, 4.5gbRAM, 2TB external SATA, Panasonic AJ-D455, G4PB1ghz, 15", 1gbRAM

> We are used to a certain level of professionalism, but check out YouTube or any number of
> sites that are displaying the MP3 of video. it's being accepted as "good enough" by the
> masses. Check out the iPod Video!

That's because it's free. For instance, a few days ago the identity of the "mystery guitar virtuoso" on YouTube was revealed. The New York Times said that, with 7.9 million views of his video, he would have gone multi-platinum by now. But that's not true. A person surfing the web looking for distractions might well land on that video and stick around for a few minutes watching and listening. But this guy isn't necessarily better than Yngwie Malmsteen, Joe Satriani or Steve Vai. And those guys don't even sell platinum, they sell gold, around 500,000 copies, and that's only at their peak in the '80s. These days they sell more like 100,000. The Korean virtuoso would never have sold 7.9 million copies of his album, let alone a video. And then you have to take into account that downloads sometimes take multiple tries, for example...or that half of my MySpace song plays were tallied while I was checking my own MySpace page, not an accurate reflection of the plays I got.

Audiences will *not* accept sub-professional sound and image if they had paid $10 for a ticket. Just as a funny amateur baseball game might get a nice little video on YouTube, but would fans go to Dodger Stadium and be willing to accept that level of quality? Absolutely not. Even The Blair Witch Project needed a lot of cleanup before it was releasable.

We need to be able to distinguish between the myth of the internet as "the future of entertainment". The internet is like everyday living -- your standards are lower, you are guided by habit, and sometimes you do things on the internet just because you're bored, not because you're really interested in that something. Like flipping channels on TV, rather than tuning in to watch your favourite show. Charge $50 for a video game, or $30 for a movie on DVD, and the standards will soar. It isn't "good enough".


www.derekmok.com

Quote
John Foley
How can you accurately color correct on a CRT when the white and black levels on LCD-DLP are all over the place. NTSC CRT monitors were the right thing for CRT based televison but that is changing very rapidly. We may find the need to color correct on a DLP and a LCD monitor of some sort to make the best balance between both.

The point is John - you can ONLY accurately colour correct to the Standards laid down, that all broadcasters adhere to (or should do), by using a calibrated (and often expensive) viewing monitor be it CRT or DLP.

Plasma and LCD just do not get close enough at present to ratify them for this purpose. Although you may get away with it, you can't be sure. One LCD will show a totally different picture to one from another manufacturer as well so u may grade on a Sony only to find the Toshiba shows it darker... what then?

YOU as the consumer should adjust your LCD to the picture if you bought a cheap one that doesn't handle the hue, saturation, brightness & contrast correctly or to your satisfaction. I believe almost all TVs (CRT, LCD, Plasma et al) under 5 years old have personal preference options for storing your own favourite picture setup.

If we had to take into account and think of ambient light, size of screen, dust on the screen, bad transmission and personal preference at the consumer end then we have a set of variables too wide to supply perfect picture to all.

Besides the display technology will hopefully get better meaning that right now anything you make needs to be top notch, the best quality you can make for your budget or its future use may be limited to a smaller section of the market.

As it stands, the reasons behind using CRT is cost over accurate DLP and ability over LCD. This will undoubtedly change and then you won't need to rant. Until it does, try not to offend anyone else with comments about their understanding of the standards we are required to work to. They do understand but they say "not until they have it in writing" from a standards body and of course the spec sheet from client/broadcaster.

Ben



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

I wonder when SMPTE will put its stamp of approval on a flatscreen calbrated to its specs? That will surely be an engineering event. It has to come soon. Even the stations are looking to dump the bottles.

- Loren
Today's FCP 5 keytip:
Preview effects sections with Option-P or Option-Backslash!

The FCP 5 KeyGuide?: a professional placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central:
www.neotrondesign.com

I'm not clear what kind of projects John does?

Have you never edited with a director or DP over your shoulder.
(Someone getting paid for real work, not an indie feature)
How about an agency Art Director? Try telling that guy that the exact color of the logo isn't that important.

If you are delivering your show master to a network and they reject your black levels, your response is going to be "it looked good on my 54" LCD with 4000:1 contrast ratio"?

They're going to roll their eyes, mutter a few profanities and tell you to try again.

In post, one monitor in the mastering chain must be an accurate reference device.
If it's not in the edit bay then it needs to be at an engineering station if that's the setup you have.

It's purpose is not to show what "might' be displayed at the consumer end. It's purpose is to give you a direct, true, uncolored look at the "real" picture. You use reference monitors for the same reasons you use a waveform/vectorscope. Your reference monitor is a FORENSIC DEVICE that alllows you to really see what you are doing. It is not a proxy for consumer devices despite the reference to MP3's or cheap car speakers.

What's going on now with all these different Plasma/LCD displays is no different than a few years ago with consumer CRT's. You go to a retailer with many displays all playing the same thing and they all look different.

As a professional, you are held to a higher standard than that.

But I guess if you are mastering for YouTube, then whatever.

As to LCD being the new defacto standard:
The manufacturers know full well the shortcomings of Plasma and LCD technology and new display technologies are coming along. The new SED screens which have been shown at trade shows are getting comments like "as good as a CRT". They won't ship till next year but still, LCD's and plasmas are not the whole story.

Thanks for the great advice and kudos to you guys for ripping into the deeper issue of selecting the right tools for the job.

For my part, I too test my projects on multiple TV sets and DVD players. My favorite set-up in fact is the $200 Wallmart special with the $49 DVD player attached. If my discs play and look good on that they will look GREAT on a Plasma fed with a $500 DVD player. I also think it's worth noting that the majority of TV's sitting in peoples homes are still cheap CRT's. (Just as we forget how many people are still on dial-up - a lot!) I'm producing content for SD terrestial and satallite, HD satallite, Web and SD DVD. So for me it's about being able to cover all of my bases. I'm also shooting with the new Panasionic HVX200 - which I love by the way - so I want to start working with my clips in true HD instead of SD timelines being fed through my dsr-11 to my ntsc monitor. Got the Kona card - now I need a true HD CRT.

The bottom line: both the DT-V1710CGU and DT-V1910CGU are good options from JVC. And the Sony PVM-14L5 and igekami brand are worth checking out too. Thanks to Ben and Shane for the specific model #'s. CHEERS!

-J1

You are very welcome, just make sure you get an engineer to calibrate the monitor for you if you don't know how or don't have the tools to do it yourself.

Its one thing to have the correct tools - it's quite another to use them correctly and keep them sharp!

An option you might look into is an exdemo or second hand unit that has a low number of hours use you can check the hours meter on most broadcast monitors and decks and you could get 100s and sometimes 1000s of the list price - you probably won't have warranty though - just be sure to find your local broadcast engineer for help and advice on parts and approximate repair costs for the unit you decide upon.

Good luck - HD is a wonderous place full of extended render times... but wonderful images.

Ben



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]