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All the news now and in your digital future
Desktop speakers recommendation needed.
Posted by Frank Lozano
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Re: Desktop speakers recommendation needed. October 12, 2006 11:58AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 312 |
Hi everyone...
I make my living with audio - I'm a voice-over guy who dabbles in other forms of media, like video, both to keep me informed on the needs of my customers, and 'cause I have fun working with video stuff, so long as I don't need to take it seriously. (I am a former broadcast engineer and video director/producer long, long ago). I work in a bunch of different studios all over Southern California, on all sorts of different kinds of projects. Some notes on audio:
1) Listen to Steve Forster - He knows what he's talking about (worked at his studio many years ago).
2) When I work on video projects, even some "high budget" ones, I'm constantly amazed by the lack of time, skill, money, and energy spent on the audio portion of the project. Because you don't "see" audio in the final project, it's often ignored by the viewer...but that is part of the reason why audio is so important - viewers are not aware of the effect the sound is having on them. That's why many directors say that the sound is sixty percent of the movie. Sound has even greater influence in SD video (It's still "Radio with Pictures.)
3) Most video editors (I have experienced a few exceptions) don't know how to hear anything. It takes an audio engineer years to learn how to hear - to understand just what "the sound is doing" - how to adjust the "colors" of a sound, and how to blend them together to achieve the desired impact. This is not something that is taught in the film schools.
4) If I was going to produce a video for money, I'd certainly throw in a few grand into the budget for audio "sweetening" - and probably get a sound designer to have a pass at the audio before the final mix. The price of sound work is pretty cheap, compared to picture.
5) If you're going to spend three-or four grand on that fancy HD monitor, consider spending at least that much for your audio monitors.
Travis
VoiceOver Guy and Entertainment Technology Enthusiast
[www.VOTalent.com]
I make my living with audio - I'm a voice-over guy who dabbles in other forms of media, like video, both to keep me informed on the needs of my customers, and 'cause I have fun working with video stuff, so long as I don't need to take it seriously. (I am a former broadcast engineer and video director/producer long, long ago). I work in a bunch of different studios all over Southern California, on all sorts of different kinds of projects. Some notes on audio:
1) Listen to Steve Forster - He knows what he's talking about (worked at his studio many years ago).
2) When I work on video projects, even some "high budget" ones, I'm constantly amazed by the lack of time, skill, money, and energy spent on the audio portion of the project. Because you don't "see" audio in the final project, it's often ignored by the viewer...but that is part of the reason why audio is so important - viewers are not aware of the effect the sound is having on them. That's why many directors say that the sound is sixty percent of the movie. Sound has even greater influence in SD video (It's still "Radio with Pictures.)
3) Most video editors (I have experienced a few exceptions) don't know how to hear anything. It takes an audio engineer years to learn how to hear - to understand just what "the sound is doing" - how to adjust the "colors" of a sound, and how to blend them together to achieve the desired impact. This is not something that is taught in the film schools.
4) If I was going to produce a video for money, I'd certainly throw in a few grand into the budget for audio "sweetening" - and probably get a sound designer to have a pass at the audio before the final mix. The price of sound work is pretty cheap, compared to picture.
5) If you're going to spend three-or four grand on that fancy HD monitor, consider spending at least that much for your audio monitors.
Travis
VoiceOver Guy and Entertainment Technology Enthusiast
[www.VOTalent.com]
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Re: Desktop speakers recommendation needed. October 12, 2006 12:06PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 245 |
Dan,
Good advice all around. But how to put some of that in practice?
Where do you go to find out how to "tune the room"? Especially the kind of rooms most editors are going to find themselves in. I have never edited in a floating, double-walled, bass-trapped edit bay. So given a relatively small hard-wall box of a room, how would you go about tuning it? Is there an online resource for info that editors can use without hiring engineering specialists?
Good advice all around. But how to put some of that in practice?
Where do you go to find out how to "tune the room"? Especially the kind of rooms most editors are going to find themselves in. I have never edited in a floating, double-walled, bass-trapped edit bay. So given a relatively small hard-wall box of a room, how would you go about tuning it? Is there an online resource for info that editors can use without hiring engineering specialists?
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Re: Desktop speakers recommendation needed. October 12, 2006 12:44PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 66 |
Travis, et al,
With the understanding audio engineering is a complex proposition; can you speak to what some of the preferred characteristics are of a "Narration" sound track using a male and/or female voice?
In other words, how can I approximate that signature voice-over audio that's deep and rich in fidelity found in top notch documentaries? What filters and/or adjustments can I make after recording?
Thank you,
Frank
With the understanding audio engineering is a complex proposition; can you speak to what some of the preferred characteristics are of a "Narration" sound track using a male and/or female voice?
In other words, how can I approximate that signature voice-over audio that's deep and rich in fidelity found in top notch documentaries? What filters and/or adjustments can I make after recording?
Thank you,
Frank
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Re: Desktop speakers recommendation needed. October 12, 2006 01:09PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,384 |
These are assumptions -- I'm really asking, not stating these as fact.
If the audio is recorded well and captured properly with the picture, then the end result (after editing and mixing) will be good audio -- never mind you don't have a perfect room to hear it in. As long as you use good earphones while editing (I have to anyway because I edit at home) then the sound is going to be good.
Mixing and sweetening, that you can do in Soundtrack Pro 2 as well, so there's no reason to end up with a horrendously bad soundtrack :-)
So when playing the movie back on your TV monitor, if you don't have a great sound system, it doesn't matter, because the end users (customer) can listen to the sound on $10,000 speakers for all you care -- the sound is going to be as good as what you heard on your earphones.
So one cost effective method is to use great earphones.
Am I right or not?
On the other hand, I don't want to spend $5,000 on a sound system to match my great High Definition camera the Sony HVR Z1U. LOL
If the audio is recorded well and captured properly with the picture, then the end result (after editing and mixing) will be good audio -- never mind you don't have a perfect room to hear it in. As long as you use good earphones while editing (I have to anyway because I edit at home) then the sound is going to be good.
Mixing and sweetening, that you can do in Soundtrack Pro 2 as well, so there's no reason to end up with a horrendously bad soundtrack :-)
So when playing the movie back on your TV monitor, if you don't have a great sound system, it doesn't matter, because the end users (customer) can listen to the sound on $10,000 speakers for all you care -- the sound is going to be as good as what you heard on your earphones.
So one cost effective method is to use great earphones.
Am I right or not?
On the other hand, I don't want to spend $5,000 on a sound system to match my great High Definition camera the Sony HVR Z1U. LOL
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Re: Desktop speakers recommendation needed. October 12, 2006 01:19PM |
Moderator Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 10,771 |
> If the audio is recorded well and captured properly with the picture, then the end result (after
> editing and mixing) will be good audio -- never mind you don't have a perfect room to hear it
> in.
Not true! How you hear it defines how you mix it. If your audio was recorded well in the field, you still have to hear it in the most neutral context possible. Otherwise you'll overcompensate for problems that don't exist.
> As long as you use good earphones while editing (I have to anyway because I edit at home)
Headphones don't give you the complete picture. They give you a false sense of intimacy, proximity and loudness. Cheaper headphones will often boost your bass, leading you to mix your bass too low and you'll end up with a papery mix.
www.derekmok.com
> editing and mixing) will be good audio -- never mind you don't have a perfect room to hear it
> in.
Not true! How you hear it defines how you mix it. If your audio was recorded well in the field, you still have to hear it in the most neutral context possible. Otherwise you'll overcompensate for problems that don't exist.
> As long as you use good earphones while editing (I have to anyway because I edit at home)
Headphones don't give you the complete picture. They give you a false sense of intimacy, proximity and loudness. Cheaper headphones will often boost your bass, leading you to mix your bass too low and you'll end up with a papery mix.
www.derekmok.com
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Re: Desktop speakers recommendation needed. October 12, 2006 01:43PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 245 |
derekmok Wrote:
> Headphones don't give you the complete picture.
> They give you a false sense of intimacy, proximity
> and loudness.
Pretty much says it about headphones. OK for editing, inaccurate to mix on.
A couple of years ago I bought a pair of Mackie HR824's for my small Pro Tools LE mixing station. An audio engineer had recommended them and their published response curve is very flat. Really wanted Genelecs but couldn't afford them.
The Mackies sound good but I have had two other sound engineers say they are a little heavy in the low end. When I take the mix back to the edit station there is less apparent bass. The edit station has Event 2020's. Now which is telling me the truth? Are the Mackies heavy on the bass or the Events light on the bass?
When I moved to L.A. a few years ago I heard that alot television producers here really like to mix for television on Genelecs.
Then I actually had a producer tell me that the Genelecs made the mix "sound better".
So do the Genelecs color the mix in any way or did this guy just not know what he was talking about?
I just want something that is truthful, that seems hard to get.
> Headphones don't give you the complete picture.
> They give you a false sense of intimacy, proximity
> and loudness.
Pretty much says it about headphones. OK for editing, inaccurate to mix on.
A couple of years ago I bought a pair of Mackie HR824's for my small Pro Tools LE mixing station. An audio engineer had recommended them and their published response curve is very flat. Really wanted Genelecs but couldn't afford them.
The Mackies sound good but I have had two other sound engineers say they are a little heavy in the low end. When I take the mix back to the edit station there is less apparent bass. The edit station has Event 2020's. Now which is telling me the truth? Are the Mackies heavy on the bass or the Events light on the bass?
When I moved to L.A. a few years ago I heard that alot television producers here really like to mix for television on Genelecs.
Then I actually had a producer tell me that the Genelecs made the mix "sound better".
So do the Genelecs color the mix in any way or did this guy just not know what he was talking about?
I just want something that is truthful, that seems hard to get.
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Re: Desktop speakers recommendation needed. getting WAY off topic October 12, 2006 02:39PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 112 |
<<What filters and/or adjustments can I make after recording?>>
Frank, that's a great question. First, I've always hated the term we'll fix it in post. Getting that great narration sound really starts at the beginning.
#1 A great voice talent. I can't tell you how many demo tapes I used to receive on a daily basis of people trying to break into the biz. out of every hundred or so tapes, there might have been one that even remotely caught me. Guys like Don LaFontaine and Travis ;-) have worked years to hone their voices. I've always thought of the voice as an instrument. Everyone can play a few notes, but it takes practice to really make it sing. These guys know how to deliver the script.
#2 A good microphone. Granted the standard $50 RadioShack special will work and get a sound, I use them all the time, but for critical recordings it's important to have an instrument that has good frequency response characteristics and doesn't roll of the highs and lows like a shelf filter. You also should match the microphone to the voice. No single microphone will catch every voice the same. I've used everything from a Shure SM57 to Neumann U87's and a bunch in between. I would almost always use a different mic for female voices than I would for male.
#3 A good V/O room. This almost takes precedence over #2. At one point I was doing a bunch of work for a local production house that kept bringing me their self recorded voice over work to "fix". After a few productions and getting frustrated I decided to find out what the source problem was. Turned out their new $5000 "WhisperRoom" sounded exactly like the bucket I was hearing. It had not been tuned properly. A completely dead anechoic room is not always preferred. A properly tuned room with a little bit of ambient "air" can go along way in adding "punch".
#4 A good signal path. Don't buy cheap cables (also don't need $100 a foot monster). Mogami/Canare= good stuff. Clean (not noisy) mic preamps. I'm not saying expensive is ALWAYS better, but there is a difference between my Mackie 1402 pre's and my Summit tube pre's. Good speakers. They don't have to cost thousands (though most truly accruate ones do) but they should have a good frequency response. Most importantly you should know them intimately. get to know their characteristics and how other peoples commercial material sounds on them.
#5 A good control room. You don't have to go broke building a "perfect room" (there's no such thing). Having come from the audio world I think I was a bit spoiled with having rooms dedicated to sound. With all of the ancillary equipment that belongs in a video studio, it's a bit harder to create this environment, but there are many "pre-made" solutions from companies like RPG that do a wonderful job.
NOW... to actually anser the question... I don't believe there are any magic "sound good" filters. It's a combination of the previous 5 things plus a mixture of EQ, compression, reverb/delay, and that's going to change with every different voice you work with.
Filmman, using just headphones is a disaster waiting to happen. Don't just trust that the audio was captured properly by someone else. My opinion is that the audio should be properly monitored throughout the whole process. I use headphones all the time for editing, JUST editing. From there I TRY to monitor on a larger reproduction system that I know trust.
Sorry for the long windedness, I hope I got my point across coherently.
Steve
Frank, that's a great question. First, I've always hated the term we'll fix it in post. Getting that great narration sound really starts at the beginning.
#1 A great voice talent. I can't tell you how many demo tapes I used to receive on a daily basis of people trying to break into the biz. out of every hundred or so tapes, there might have been one that even remotely caught me. Guys like Don LaFontaine and Travis ;-) have worked years to hone their voices. I've always thought of the voice as an instrument. Everyone can play a few notes, but it takes practice to really make it sing. These guys know how to deliver the script.
#2 A good microphone. Granted the standard $50 RadioShack special will work and get a sound, I use them all the time, but for critical recordings it's important to have an instrument that has good frequency response characteristics and doesn't roll of the highs and lows like a shelf filter. You also should match the microphone to the voice. No single microphone will catch every voice the same. I've used everything from a Shure SM57 to Neumann U87's and a bunch in between. I would almost always use a different mic for female voices than I would for male.
#3 A good V/O room. This almost takes precedence over #2. At one point I was doing a bunch of work for a local production house that kept bringing me their self recorded voice over work to "fix". After a few productions and getting frustrated I decided to find out what the source problem was. Turned out their new $5000 "WhisperRoom" sounded exactly like the bucket I was hearing. It had not been tuned properly. A completely dead anechoic room is not always preferred. A properly tuned room with a little bit of ambient "air" can go along way in adding "punch".
#4 A good signal path. Don't buy cheap cables (also don't need $100 a foot monster). Mogami/Canare= good stuff. Clean (not noisy) mic preamps. I'm not saying expensive is ALWAYS better, but there is a difference between my Mackie 1402 pre's and my Summit tube pre's. Good speakers. They don't have to cost thousands (though most truly accruate ones do) but they should have a good frequency response. Most importantly you should know them intimately. get to know their characteristics and how other peoples commercial material sounds on them.
#5 A good control room. You don't have to go broke building a "perfect room" (there's no such thing). Having come from the audio world I think I was a bit spoiled with having rooms dedicated to sound. With all of the ancillary equipment that belongs in a video studio, it's a bit harder to create this environment, but there are many "pre-made" solutions from companies like RPG that do a wonderful job.
NOW... to actually anser the question... I don't believe there are any magic "sound good" filters. It's a combination of the previous 5 things plus a mixture of EQ, compression, reverb/delay, and that's going to change with every different voice you work with.
Filmman, using just headphones is a disaster waiting to happen. Don't just trust that the audio was captured properly by someone else. My opinion is that the audio should be properly monitored throughout the whole process. I use headphones all the time for editing, JUST editing. From there I TRY to monitor on a larger reproduction system that I know trust.
Sorry for the long windedness, I hope I got my point across coherently.
Steve
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Re: Desktop speakers recommendation needed. October 12, 2006 02:58PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 6,730 |
Quote
So one cost effective method is to use great earphones.
Am I right or not?
On the other hand, I don't want to spend $5,000 on a sound system to match my great High Definition camera the Sony HVR Z1U. LOL
filmman,
Your assumptions are incorrect, IMHO. Regarding "earphones" (or headphones as I like to refer to them), they are NOT to be used for "critical" mixing / final output monitoring. No room where a piece will be played will have the same acoustics as headphones. You need decent monitors.
You have to stop linking everything to a joke about money (or lack of it). It's getting very old. If you want a good final product, you have to invest & buy good gear or you will end up with cheap, badly produced films that you'll have no problem posting on YouTube for free (unless that's your target - then it doesn't matter).
When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.
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Re: Desktop speakers recommendation needed. getting WAY off topic October 12, 2006 07:23PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 312 |
Thanks Steve.
I would add to that - to get a "great" voice over recording you need:
1) A good script - one that's written by someone who knows how to write for the ear.
2) A good recording engineer/audio producer. - One who knows how to choose the right microphone for a talent, and who knows what's going to happen to the audio after it leaves the production company's hands. There's a lot that happens to the soundtrack once the "Production" stage is complete. If it gets sent to a network or local TV station, it will be sent to a bunch more audio processing equipment which some engineer will have adjusted to what he thinks is right. The audio wll be compressed and equalized to insure that the a particular station will be louder than the others. And then there are the local cable companies, where anything can happen. If it's going on satellite, the audio will be subjected to probably too much .mp3 compression.... And then, it will be played on all sorts of TV speakers. If it's going to be played in a theater, some compensation will need to be taken for long reverberation times, and all the various distribution formats - A good engineer will know how to adjust your material to compensate.
3) Good direction. - I just returned from a voice-over session, where the director/producer arrived 45 minutes late. Okay I'm used to that, but the recording studio had told the producer that they already had a booking and they had squeezed him in - we now had only 20 minutes to record the guy's commercial. After a couple of takes, the producer takes a phone call from someone - apparently doing some sort of construction at his "beachfront" house. We then need to wait for him while he swears and cusses, not only at his construction guy, but also his wife, who has some sort of involvement in the situation. Then the studio phone rings to announce the arrival of the next session. The director needs to try to impress us that he's got "construction" at his beachront estate, the construction guy that he's directing a video project, and the engineer and I are just trying to get the project done so that the next session, who's patiently waiting outside can get in and get their job done. And I'm supposed to deliver a "warm and caring" message.
Well, we got it done, everyone seemed happy, but I can't help but think that the client would have gotten a better performance if the director had treated everyone - me, the engineer, the people with the next session, and maybe his spouse and construction guy with a litte bit of respect.
Travis
VoiceOver Guy and Entertainment Technology Enthusiast
[www.VOTalent.com]
I would add to that - to get a "great" voice over recording you need:
1) A good script - one that's written by someone who knows how to write for the ear.
2) A good recording engineer/audio producer. - One who knows how to choose the right microphone for a talent, and who knows what's going to happen to the audio after it leaves the production company's hands. There's a lot that happens to the soundtrack once the "Production" stage is complete. If it gets sent to a network or local TV station, it will be sent to a bunch more audio processing equipment which some engineer will have adjusted to what he thinks is right. The audio wll be compressed and equalized to insure that the a particular station will be louder than the others. And then there are the local cable companies, where anything can happen. If it's going on satellite, the audio will be subjected to probably too much .mp3 compression.... And then, it will be played on all sorts of TV speakers. If it's going to be played in a theater, some compensation will need to be taken for long reverberation times, and all the various distribution formats - A good engineer will know how to adjust your material to compensate.
3) Good direction. - I just returned from a voice-over session, where the director/producer arrived 45 minutes late. Okay I'm used to that, but the recording studio had told the producer that they already had a booking and they had squeezed him in - we now had only 20 minutes to record the guy's commercial. After a couple of takes, the producer takes a phone call from someone - apparently doing some sort of construction at his "beachfront" house. We then need to wait for him while he swears and cusses, not only at his construction guy, but also his wife, who has some sort of involvement in the situation. Then the studio phone rings to announce the arrival of the next session. The director needs to try to impress us that he's got "construction" at his beachront estate, the construction guy that he's directing a video project, and the engineer and I are just trying to get the project done so that the next session, who's patiently waiting outside can get in and get their job done. And I'm supposed to deliver a "warm and caring" message.
Well, we got it done, everyone seemed happy, but I can't help but think that the client would have gotten a better performance if the director had treated everyone - me, the engineer, the people with the next session, and maybe his spouse and construction guy with a litte bit of respect.
Travis
VoiceOver Guy and Entertainment Technology Enthusiast
[www.VOTalent.com]
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Re: Desktop speakers recommendation needed. October 13, 2006 03:52AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 2,526 |
Harmon Kardon made a sexy mdoel called Champagne which are a pair of stylish flute-like (as in drink glass) speakers, non boxy, and reasonably flat response. It does have that big boomer unit you can crank up and get semi surround out of a sound blaster but I don;t use that. . I hide that behind the flat and crank it up for iTunes. I've been loving it for years, for both computer entertainment and audio playback. I recall they cost about 150.00.
No, they aren't Rolands... I only do corporate/edu online and mixing here in the digi-hovel. For serious audio cutting, I use headphones. But for day to day monitoring through a Behringer mini-mixer it's been great.
Bose Companion 3 speaker system for $250.00 or so is quite good for such tiny speaker boxes. And a big blocky boomer. The Bose has a neat hockey puck audio controller you tap to mute and twist to raise volume.
- Loren
Today's FCP 4 / 5 keytip:
Do a virtual Audio Mixdown to lighten playback load with Command-Option-R!
The FCP KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com
No, they aren't Rolands... I only do corporate/edu online and mixing here in the digi-hovel. For serious audio cutting, I use headphones. But for day to day monitoring through a Behringer mini-mixer it's been great.
Bose Companion 3 speaker system for $250.00 or so is quite good for such tiny speaker boxes. And a big blocky boomer. The Bose has a neat hockey puck audio controller you tap to mute and twist to raise volume.
- Loren
Today's FCP 4 / 5 keytip:
Do a virtual Audio Mixdown to lighten playback load with Command-Option-R!
The FCP KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com
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Re: Desktop speakers recommendation needed. October 13, 2006 01:41PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 35 |
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Re: Desktop speakers recommendation needed. October 13, 2006 11:19PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 408 |
Hi Sprocketz:
It's all right here [www.acoustics101.com]
If you can't do construction, you can at least purchase bass traps and diffusers. You do need a spectrum analyzer and a graphic EQ to 'tune a room' which means to really EQ the system to the room.
You can always hire a competent sound engineer to do this all for you but it won't be cheap.
Best,
D
It's all right here [www.acoustics101.com]
If you can't do construction, you can at least purchase bass traps and diffusers. You do need a spectrum analyzer and a graphic EQ to 'tune a room' which means to really EQ the system to the room.
You can always hire a competent sound engineer to do this all for you but it won't be cheap.
Best,
D
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Re: Desktop speakers recommendation needed. October 13, 2006 11:37PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 245 |
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Re: Desktop speakers recommendation needed. October 14, 2006 02:30AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 2,526 |
Dan B writes-
[You can always hire a competent sound engineer to do this all for you but it won't be cheap. ]
It helps if you went to school with Mike Blackmer! ;-)
www.blackmersound.com/blackmer.swf
- Loren
Today's FCP 4 / 5 keytip:
Do a virtual Audio Mixdown to lighten playback load with Command-Option-R!
The FCP KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com
[You can always hire a competent sound engineer to do this all for you but it won't be cheap. ]
It helps if you went to school with Mike Blackmer! ;-)
www.blackmersound.com/blackmer.swf
- Loren
Today's FCP 4 / 5 keytip:
Do a virtual Audio Mixdown to lighten playback load with Command-Option-R!
The FCP KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com
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Re: Desktop speakers recommendation needed. October 14, 2006 08:47PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 551 |
I have a M-Audio Firewire Solo into a pair of M-Audio BX5 powered speaker system. I like powered speakers and these are very flat and sound great without any color from a amplifier. I also have my system set to route audio through a amplifier into some teac speakers to see how the sound sounds through a typical system. I'm working in a one room studio office on my own.
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