OT: XServe RAID / Xsan in an UNCOMPRESSED HD Production Environment...

PfA (Paul form Apple), Mr. Mike Horton, Kevin Monahan, Shane Ross, Jude Cotter, Graeme Nattress, Derek Mok, Nick Meyers, Tom Wolsky or any other pros out there with Uncompressed HD Network Production Experience (X-San / Xserve RAID):

I need current working pros using XServe RAID / Xsan (multi-seat) in an HD (not HDV or DVCProHD, but Uncompressed HD) Environment to chime in with their pros & cons. My facility is about to cancel our plan for this because they think it is too expensive & will not work...they don't think multiple users can work off the same ftg on the XServe RAID using XSan. They think it will slow it down. We are looking at implementing 15 Xsan nodes.

Does anyone have any experience with Xserve RAID in a network environment that has some experiences they would like to share? Please let me hear from you. If you don't use it but know someone who does...please have them jump in.

Thanx

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Joey,

I've got tons of experience with X-SAN,as we're running one of the largest installations in Los Angeles. Unfortunately, we're still in STANDARD DEF mode.

As for the "expensive" comment, ANY HD solution is gonna be expensive. Will it work? I defer to those with experience.

Feel free to contact me off-list if necessary.

Mark

Mark,

Thanx for replying. Your email is hidden so I can't contact you off-list. Do you know of any facilities that are using an X-SAN (multi-node) with Uncompressed HD ftg? Please shoot me an email (very important).

Thanx so much.

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

One of the Systems Engineers from Apple will have to get in on this thread for that answer. Not sure what they can or cannot say though. I'll have to see if I can get one for you. NFL films here in LA has an HD set up I know of.

Michael Horton
-------------------

Joey,

Sorry. Not into HD at the moment.

You may want to contact Zeke Margolis at Keycode Media (Burbank). As a reseller, he's very knowledgeable about who has what here in LA.


mark

Talked to a Apple Systems Engineer here in LA and they are not really allowed to talk much on public forums so your best bet is to call up a VAR such as who Mark recommended and ProMax. They do installs or can tell you who is using what.

Michael Horton
-------------------

Thanx Mike & Mark. I will follow up with you, Mark, on Monday. Mike, your engineer can shoot me a Private Message to keep it off the forum if he would be so kind.

Nobody on this forum works or knows anyone (especially in LA) that works in an Uncompressed HD environment (multi-nodal) with X-SAN / Xserve RAID? Please jump in or shoot me a Private Message if you don't want to speak in Public.

Thanx, guys & gals.

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

You should probably begin by going here

[www.apple.com]

Michael Horton
-------------------

Mike,

Been there - done that (for the Sales Pitch). Looking for real world users in Broadcast HD Environments...not the "sales stuff". Looking for practical application experience from folks that are NOT selling this equipment and are putting their butts on the line using it everyday.

Thanx

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Call Michael Cioni at PlasterCity Post. www.plastercitypost.com. They run uncompressed HD on a network, but use Huge Systems drives...and I am not sure about X-SAN.

I don't think this is done very often Joe. Typically UNCOMPRESSED HD is left for the final process. You don't capture at that quality for offline cutting, especially with multiple cutters. Even Mark Raudonis doesn't capture FULL quality SD when they use their XSan...they capture offline RT, then when picture is locked, they capture uncompressed SD. And that uncompressed footage isn't on the XSan, is it Mark? Isn't is stored on local drives in that online bay?

Why do you have the need to work uncompressed HD in a multiseat environment? Can you not capture at an offline format (DVCPRO HD) and then online to full quality HD later? Seems like a waste of resources and VERY expensive. But I don't work in a SAN environment. The one company that I helped set up a SAN for (with ProMax's help) worked DVCPRO HD because they shot with the Varicam. They also did a show that they captured 8-bit uncompressed SD to edit then output because they had a very fast turnaround need...but I heard that it was a nightmare and that they ran out of space VERY fast...got behind in the cutting, so the went to an offline/online workflow.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Thanx Shane, but the Huge systems won't do it. It has to be Xserve RAID / Xsan / Fiberchannel. We have had our presentation and have a system all picked out. The brass (who won't even touch the damn thing) got cold feet with the cost and is pulling the plug unless we can convince them that the Apple Network Editing / Graphics solution is the shiznit. I was the one that brought it to the table in the first place after seeing the performance of it at a seminar.

Uncompressed HD is only left for the "final process" in straight Edit situations. For Graphics / Compositing we use 1:1. This is for 10 Uncompressed Design workstations & 5 Uncompressed HD FCP stations. No offline rez...all artists working in After Effects. One time digitize of ftg that everyone can work from (backgrounds / generic element shoot footage / B-Roll / etc). Our Avid Row (6 rooms) is on their own Unity... this is for US.

Thanx anyway, dude.

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Well poop. I have been searching the PRO area of Apple for the feature they did on Mark Raudonis and the Bunim/Murray use of XSAN, but I cannot find it. That would be a good article to convince your boss' that this works and works well.

Mark, do you know where it is?


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Ahhh....found it. Had to use Google, but it was the top hit:

[www.apple.com]


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

But that aint HD. HD is a whole nother ball game.

Just make a call to NFL films and ask to speak to some IT guy. Playboy channel I believe is also HD.

Michael Horton
-------------------

But again, how much Uncompressed HD footage are we talking about here? You said you only do the finishing work on uncompressed HD. How many people need to access THAT footage at one time?

You should still work at offline resolutions for creative cutting.

And still give Michael Cioni at PlasterCity Post a call. He knows a LOT about HD and networked storage.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Joey,

I guess the question is, "What is your alternative"? Tossing that many streams of uncompressed HD around is taxing the limit of any system that I know of. Avid gets around it with their DnXHD which IS compressed.

When we installed our X-SAN, we opted for an "off-line RT" workflow because we knew the available bandwidth couldn't support 50 seats (streams) of full res SD. We do have at least 5-7 seats of Full Rez SD (Our on-line rooms) which do draw off of the SAN. Further complicating things, we occasionally do work at DV resolution for some internal projects where we don't want to spend the time to uprez. For us, more people (streams) was the goal, so we downsized our resolution (off-line RT).

What you're asking for is a simple math equation. # of spindles (drives) delivers a certain amount of bandwidth divided by the number of simultaneous users. Theoretically, with enough drive sets you could do what you're asking. Did your sales presentation say it could be done? I'm sure they specified a mountain of X-Raids, which is why it's so expensive. You're also gonna need double fibre for each seat, further adding to the cost. Oh, and on a system this big, don't forget the airconditioning! All those drives create alot of heat.

mark

sorry, Joey,

DVCProHD is what we're using.
and we've only got 6-7 people accessing it.

my gut feeling is that 15 people trying to access uncompressed HD at once will be too much for the system,
but that's ONLY based on me thinking "gee, that HD must use a lot of bandwidth"
and not even knowing how much that is.

i guess i'm saying i know squat...
and if i needed to know, i'd call Arthur, our tech support guy who put our system together.
He's in Sydney Australia, and you;d be better of calling someone closer to home,
but the point is what everyone else is saying: talk to your VAR.
you;d have to have one in mind to help put all this together, i imagine?

PS:
i seem to remember you as a free-lancer...
since when you been working for the man?


nick

Thanx, guys. It's clear that nobody is working on Uncompressed HD in here. I figured the LA crowd would definitely be all over this I don't need to be reminded about how many drives I need or how expensive it is - I am well aware. Our presentation is up over $150,000 for Dual Fiber Channel...the works. What I NEED is for someone with EXPERIENCE WITH THIS SET-UP to please contact me and give me a performance critique. The Non-creatives have control of the $$$ and are telling us that this will not work.

Nick,

I have been a salaried employee since 2000. I have my own freelance business (DigiDojo) that I run on my own time. For the last 4 years I have been a Motion Graphics Designer / Editor for... lets just say a very popular sports cable network (over 70 million households - expected to climb over 100 million in 2007).

I appreciate the feedback guys...keep it coming, but PLEASE stay on topic. We are running out of time.

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Joe, a lot of us are working with uncompressed HD footage...just not in a shared environment. The only place I know that might is Plastercity Post, and I have referred you to them NOW a total of three times. Call Michael Cioni. Let him know that I referred you. He knows more about HD than anyone I know.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Shane,

Yes, I know there are plenty of folks working on Unc HD (I am included in that group). That's not what I need right now. I need very specific input for a very specific situation. I saw your recommendation the first 2 times...I appreciated it then , I appreciate it now and I noted it. I will contact Michael on Monday (if the boom hasn't already been lowered on us) I guess I was just hoping that one of my friends here on the LAFCPUG could help me straight away.

Trust me... this whole gig is ten times larger than I am even letting on or anybody at my studio is anticipating. This UNC HD thing will probably be scuttled anyway because of the cost. It's lovely when non-creatives & accountants are in charge of getting you the proper gear to handle your broadcast media. 1st of the year - the sh!t will hit the fan.

Thanx for the input, guys.

- Joey

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Joey,
I have worked on a multi-seat Xsan Xserve RAID setup around 18 months ago. I think it was 10 seats. It worked very well, but all seats weren't banging HD. Some seats were SD, some DV and one or two seats were uncompressed HD. For an Xsan setup of this size, it would seem to be fairly typical of a boutique or medium sized post house.

I haven't heard of a place where they had more than a few seats of uncompressed HD. It usually doesn't make sense for the offline to online workflow. But if you want 15 seats all on uncompressed HD, I suggest that you talk to some Xsan specialists and knowledgeable VARs. I've found Torrey Loomis of Silverado Systems very knowledgeable as a VAR, specializing in Xsan and Xserve RAID. The best Xsan specialist around is Matt Geller in Chicago. These guys will give you the straight up dope.

Matt Geller: [www.metamediatech.com]
Torrey Loomis: [www.silverado.cc]

Kevin Monahan
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Thanx Kev

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

A Single XServe will be just good enough for a single uncompressed HD feed. If you need 10 uncompressed HD feeds, you're looking at 10 Xserve RAIDs.

I'm using MetaSAN for my little SAN here, and find it a much more mac-like solution than Xsan, in that it's easy to install and use. I'd certainly speak to the MetaSAN guys and see what they suggest.

Graeme

[www.nattress.com] - Plugins for FCP-X