EDLs and the DI process

Hi all. I work for a VFX company and my job involves conforming our shots to the cut of the film supplied by the company editing the film and then giving finished shots to the DI house. Myself and the offline assistant editor are having a hard time communicating what the EDLs should look like. All of his initial EDLs he sent me referred to the way his clips are named in his edit, which is useless to me. We told him the EDLs need to refer to our clip names, not his.

So he sent another batch of EDLS. He sent one EDL for each of our shots. They provide the right time code and any other instructions (speed changes, for example) for the shot and the sequence TC for the shot, but they still refer to the shot names in his edit. For example, our shot might be named "XX_001_001," but the EDL refers to the shot as "301".

In order for the DI house to conform our shots to the edit, I'm 99% sure that the EDLs we're getting need to refer to the exact names of our shots, not how he has them named. We send our finished shots straight to the DI house, so the EDL needs to refer to our shot name, not the editor's shot name.

I want to make sure I'm telling the offline editor exactly what we need, because he doesn't quite get it yet. What I plan to tell him Monday is that he should rename the clips in his edit that refer to our VFX shots using our file names. He can then send individual EDLs that I will use for matching his edit. But I want to make sure I'm telling him the right thing.

In the end I'm assuming he will create an EDL for each reel, not an EDL for each shot, and send to the DI house. Obviously each EDL needs to refer to our shots by our file names, not the edit house's, since our shots go straight to the DI house and not through editorial.

If anybody is familiar with this process, I'd love to hear your thought on how this should work. Like I said, I'm 99% positive that the offline editor needs to match our file names exactly in his edit and in the EDLs, and that it's not our job to do that.

Thanks.

There is a lot you haven't told us here.
How are your files and the editors files created/captured/transfered?

Speaking generally, an EDL shouldn't have clip names in it anyway. It's strictly a Reel Name and timecode format. Clip names make it easier to read for humans but that's it really.

Just how exactly are you getting your material in and out of your effects system and the edit system?

How are you conforming the editors effects builds in your effects system?

details details details

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

The editors are not in house. They are in the UK. They work in Avid. They gave us the final cut of the movie, with temp comps of our shots, as a Quicktime. The editors also gave us a shot list with TC and length of our shots. The DI house gives us scans of each element we need to create the shots. Usually there is a BG, FG and clean plate. They are 2k dpx sequences.

As each shot element comes to us from the DI house, I convert into a Quicktime and drop it into my cut, which is in Final Cut, to make sure the shots match the edit. Our 2d and 3d artists work on the shots and when a comp is finished, we send back a 2k dpx sequence to the DI house to output back to film.

Without an EDL containing TC and in and out points, how would the DI house know where our shots go in the film? We never send anything back to the editors. We each send our shots to the DI house separately. The only complete edit is created at the DI house.

The editors have used their own naming structure for each clip (i.e. shot) in their edit, and they have no relationship to the names of the shots we receive from the DI house. So again, how could the DI house conform the film, combining the editors shots and our shots, without an EDL that contains our final shot names?

Andrew Kines Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is a lot you haven't told us here.
> How are your files and the editors files
> created/captured/transfered?
>
> Speaking generally, an EDL shouldn't have clip
> names in it anyway. It's strictly a Reel Name and
> timecode format. Clip names make it easier to read
> for humans but that's it really.
>
> Just how exactly are you getting your material in
> and out of your effects system and the edit
> system?
>
> How are you conforming the editors effects builds
> in your effects system?
>
> details details details

The DPX files can have timecode and keycodes embedded inside them.

If your vfx artists have a way re-introduce the timecode back into the DPX files, the DI house can then use that info to identify "which shots go where". While it does rely on the artists actually doing that step accurately, and properly, it can help you sync you new frames with the DI edit.

I've created a DPX QuickTime component with Timecode support. You should actually be able to load your Artists' DPX frames into FCP, Add/alter the start timecode, and it will write out a new set of DPX frames with timecode burned in. I haven't tried this, but I will give it a shot later today. (I think I need to make sure the reel name gets burned in too.)

bob..

Robert Monaghan
Glue Tools - Cineon & DPX QuickTime Components
www.gluetools.com
Santa Barbara, CA

You've got a broken loop if the only complete edit is at the DI house and the finished effects shots never get back to the editors. That's not a bad thing if you have a system to take care of it which clearly you don't.

There is no wrong here. Except that no one set up a naming convention for your workflow.

BTW I wasn't implying that an EDL wasn't a good idea in any way. Just that using only clip names in an EDL is not solid workflow.

If I understand you correctly, you need the editors to replace their name for the temp effects comp elements in the EDL that the DI house gets with the name you have given the final version of your comped shot. They would have to replace the elements with a mixdown that has the name of the shot that you have chosen. You would have to provide them that list of names before they supply the EDL to the DI house. Or when they send the pull list to the DI house for your elements they should provide a list of names for the final comps and you stick to those names.

I don't know whether you are dealing with handles on the elements you're given and the final comps you send back but names alone aren't the solution. What are you using to create the timecode of the final files, FG, BG, or ?

I can envision a method where you drop low res proxies of your final comps into FCP, line them up to the editors cut on a track above and send an EDL of that track to the DI house. That way they get an EDL with your names, TC that matches the final edit and TC that matches the DPX files you have sent over. The sequence in FCP would have to have the same TC as the QT the editors sent over, of course.

From the editors standpoint their process would look like this:
Lock Picture
Extract pull list of elements for FX comps
Send pull list to DI house for scanning
Extract EDL for Locked sequence
Render reference QT for FX and DI conform.

Figure out where a naming convetion can fit in that flow, there are a few options, and you're good to go.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

The workflow you describe below is pretty much how it works. The source TC of the shots is embedded in the dpx files. The sequence TC, i.e. where that shot goes in the edit, is laid out in a list we received from the editors. The list includes both source and sequence TC for each shot.

The main reason that I, and I assume the DI house, need EDLs is for shots with speed ramps, dropped frames, reverses, etc. We need that info from the editors to make sure our shots conform to the edit.

I've been told our DPX files will have TC embedded in them. But again, without EDLs, I don't see how the DI house could conform the shots.

I need EDLs to match the shots. But I think I'll just email the DI house on Monday and ask what they are expecting and how they conform the shots. I'm trying to figure out how to do something I know nothing about, so I'll just go to the source.

Andrew Kines Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You've got a broken loop if the only complete edit
> is at the DI house and the finished effects shots
> never get back to the editors. That's not a bad
> thing if you have a system to take care of it
> which clearly you don't.
>
> There is no wrong here. Except that no one set up
> a naming convention for your workflow.
>
> BTW I wasn't implying that an EDL wasn't a good
> idea in any way. Just that using only clip names
> in an EDL is not solid workflow.
>
> If I understand you correctly, you need the
> editors to replace their name for the temp effects
> comp elements in the EDL that the DI house gets
> with the name you have given the final version of
> your comped shot. They would have to replace the
> elements with a mixdown that has the name of the
> shot that you have chosen. You would have to
> provide them that list of names before they supply
> the EDL to the DI house. Or when they send the
> pull list to the DI house for your elements they
> should provide a list of names for the final comps
> and you stick to those names.
>
> I don't know whether you are dealing with handles
> on the elements you're given and the final comps
> you send back but names alone aren't the solution.
> What are you using to create the timecode of the
> final files, FG, BG, or ?
>
> I can envision a method where you drop low res
> proxies of your final comps into FCP, line them up
> to the editors cut on a track above and send an
> EDL of that track to the DI house. That way they
> get an EDL with your names, TC that matches the
> final edit and TC that matches the DPX files you
> have sent over. The sequence in FCP would have to
> have the same TC as the QT the editors sent over,
> of course.
>
> From the editors standpoint their process would
> look like this:
> Lock Picture
> Extract pull list of elements for FX comps
> Send pull list to DI house for scanning
> Extract EDL for Locked sequence
> Render reference QT for FX and DI conform.
>
> Figure out where a naming convetion can fit in
> that flow, there are a few options, and you're
> good to go.

The DPX files we send to the DI house have TC embedded, but the artists are just returning the same shots that we received from them. Any speed changes or dropped frames are a function of the edit, which is why I think we need EDLS.

robertmonaghan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The DPX files can have timecode and keycodes
> embedded inside them.
>
> If your vfx artists have a way re-introduce the
> timecode back into the DPX files, the DI house can
> then use that info to identify "which shots go
> where". While it does rely on the artists actually
> doing that step accurately, and properly, it can
> help you sync you new frames with the DI edit.
>
> I've created a DPX QuickTime component with
> Timecode support. You should actually be able to
> load your Artists' DPX frames into FCP, Add/alter
> the start timecode, and it will write out a new
> set of DPX frames with timecode burned in. I
> haven't tried this, but I will give it a shot
> later today. (I think I need to make sure the reel
> name gets burned in too.)
>
> bob..

Actually, I am willing to bet, that the timecode is stripped from the header, when the DPX is generated from the effects package. Its a common problem I've experienced. Shake, Combustion, and others discard that information, when exporting DPX sequences.

bob..

Robert Monaghan
Glue Tools - Cineon & DPX QuickTime Components
www.gluetools.com
Santa Barbara, CA

Quote

robertmonaghan Wrote:
Actually, I am willing to bet, that the timecode is stripped from the header, when the DPX is generated from the effects package.

Me too.

Andreas

The dpx sequences that we receive from DI does have source code for each shot. I've been told that TC WILL be embedded in the output dpx sequences.

But there seems to me to be a total disconnect in this process. The artists and supervisors watch the original sequences on our 2k playback machine. Every time there is a new comp, they review it on the 2k. When a shot is "done," it's submitted for director approval. And if it's OK'd, it's finaled and uploaded back to DI.

The disconnect is that nobody looks at the shots as they will appear in the edit. I told the CG supervisor that one of the shots that was submitted for director approval was sped up in the edit, based on the EDL the editor sent me for that shot. I don't understand how the CG supervisors, the producer and director can OK a shot without seeing it in the edit. It doesn't make sense to me.

It seems like each shot should go through me first. I would apply the EDL for that shot and show it to the supervisors and producer, so they know it's been speed up, slowed down, reversed, etc. I don't know if I can output a dpx sequence from FCP, but I could at least provide an image sequence for their reference.

I'm going to talk to my supervisor Monday to talk about this. This process just doesn't seem right.

archyb

robertmonaghan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually, I am willing to bet, that the timecode
> is stripped from the header, when the DPX is
> generated from the effects package. Its a common
> problem I've experienced. Shake, Combustion, and
> others discard that information, when exporting
> DPX sequences.
>
> bob..

My question would still be which TC will be used for the final comp? The TC from the FG or the BG or any of the plates?

Good luck archyb and let us know what you work out.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

If I had to guess, its probably the set of plates that contains the greenscreen elements. Generally this is the FG plate. The BG plate is typically static, and can often be just a single still image. So, If you had an object or actor moving around and "acting" over a greenscreen, it is probably the plate sequence you want to use for timecode.

In a nutshell, the plates with the main action/acting that is carrying the story, is probably the plates you want to take the timecode from.

bob..

Robert Monaghan
Glue Tools - Cineon & DPX QuickTime Components
www.gluetools.com
Santa Barbara, CA

I'm surprised the DI house hasn't given guidelines on how shots should be delivered and what they need for conforming the high res shots.

EDLs are for video, not film. The TC is only useful because the film dailes were telecined. The important information is the keycodes.

The DI house is scanning based on keycode information, be it for vfx or the DI. TC isn't going to help them much. They should be getting cut lists with list both TC and keycode.

The editorial dept and the DI house should also be talking to each other, so that the DI house knows where the vfx shots are to be dropped in, be it by shot name or using references.

The editorial dept should also have a database listing the shots the way they have it named and whatever way the the vfx shots are going to be named. Someone needs to have a master database and I can't see why it's not the editorial dept.

Depending on how the DI house works, it's probably useful to find a way to pass through the keycode and TC into the DPX header.

They should have a reference for the whole film and how the vfx cuts in.

If there is a post supervisor, your concerns should be passed along.