FCP trimming questions

okay, so i'm fluent on the avid, and trying to approach that abiltiy on final cut (starting a new project that's already working on FCP). sorry if these are bonehead obvious questions, but i'm just trying to get the FCP logic. these are just some trimming questions (i have about a zillion others...) but first things first:

1. audio trims - i can't hear audio trims unless i'm in the dynamic mode using the JKL keys. but if i'm just going frame by frame or grabbing and sliding, i can't hear anything. how do i monitor non-realtime audio trims as i trim?

2. then, the 'trim edit' window let's me use the dynamic function to choose the edit point realtime. but when i'm trimming audio i can't see picture. or, i can work in the timeline, and see the picture, but i can't work realtime and can't hear anything. is there some mode that just let's me see AND hear what i'm trying to do, either realtime OR frame by frame? then, is there a difference between working in the 'trim edit' window in ripple mode vs. double clicking the selection tool? they seem the same.

3. in an assymetrical trim, how do i select which of those edit points i'm monitoring, since there is usually one primary focus of the trim, and other tracks are merely being slipped to maintain sync. it seems to default to the picture trim point, and i can't make it go to one of the audio edit points and monitor that (and hopefully be able to hear the audio as i trim).

4. drag insert (segment insert on the avid) seems to be affected by when the option key is hit in combination with selecting the clip. if i press option, then select the clip and slide it, it seems to duplicate the clip and place the copy in a new spot. if i select the clip first and the hit option, it sometimes moves the clip as an insert, sometimes as an overwrite. it must be related to some sequence of keystrokes, but i'm not clear what they are. so how do i slide a clip to a new position as an insert, not an overwrite?

that's a start, and thanks in advance for any insights...

> 1. audio trims - i can't hear audio trims unless i'm in the dynamic mode using the JKL keys.

Turn on View - Audio Scrubbing.

> 2. then, the 'trim edit' window let's me use the dynamic function to choose the edit point
> realtime. but when i'm trimming audio i can't see picture. or, i can work in the timeline, and
> see the picture, but i can't work realtime and can't hear anything.

Open up the audio in the Viewer window and do it there. Much faster waveform graphs, and the ability to trim 1/100th of a frame. I don't see why you'd have to see picture at the same time; if you want waveforms and to see picture, and your audio and video aren't linked, then you'd have to turn on Sequence Settings (APPLE-0), Timeline Options, Waveform Display.

> 3. in an assymetrical trim, how do i select which of those edit points i'm monitoring, since
> there is usually one primary focus of the trim, and other tracks are merely being slipped to
> maintain sync.

In the Trim window? Click on the side of the edit you want to change and you'll switch to ripple mode. In the timeline, use the Ripple tool (RR) instead of Roll (R).

> if i select the clip first and the hit option, it sometimes moves the clip as an insert, sometimes
> as an overwrite.

It's more accurate to do it using Cut/Copy/Paste commands. Faster because you don't have to deal with dragging and dropping, and more accurate because different shortcuts do different things. The command for Paste Insert is SHIFT-V; the command for Paste overwrite is APPLE-V.

But if you really want to drag, watch the arrow carefully as you hold the mouse button. If you're dragging the clip to a blank space, then it will default to Overwrite and the arrow will point down as you release the button. Holding down OPTION makes it do an Insert and the arrow will be pointing right.

It's not easy to explain these things via the internet. You might want to get a fluent FCP editor/assistant to come in for a day and get some hands-on tips.


www.derekmok.com

Trimming on FCP is not Modal as in Avid. Drag and drop works in FCP but not as well in Avid.

You would do well to get the Apple Pro training Series Book: FCP for AVID editors. This will clear up a lot of the different jargon differences since there are not many functional differences, but many operation differences.

What Derek and John said. Familiar migration pains. Many of us have been there.

[1. audio trims - i can't hear audio trims unless i'm in the dynamic mode using the JKL keys.]

Shift-S will toggle Audio scrub. Also, don't go looking for Audit Trim Side, not available yet.

[2. or, I can work in the timeline, and see the picture, but i can't work realtime and can't hear anything.]

Again, scrub toggle may be off. You'll probably enjoy Timeline editing much more than Big Trim Edit Window, even with its dynamic trimming features, but it's personal taste. Myself, I'm a timeline nut.

Go here to check out key commands for "live" iterative playback trimming using Plus-Minus-value keys:

Keys to Speed

You'll use a small suite of keys to pretty much replicate Avid Express-style loop trimming. The article describes a good kit for keyboard nuts and should bring up your comfort level quickly.

And while you're at it, scan this article (and a couple others nearby) for a broader view:

The ChangeOver Challenge


[3. in an asymmetrical trim, how do I select which of those edit points i'm monitoring, ...(and hopefully be able to hear the audio as i trim). ]

Tailor your asymmetrical cut using Command-clicks with the Ripple tool chosen (R-R). You can click left or right side of secondary cuts on any track to regulate how they trim, much lke Avid. Highlights instead of pink rollers. of course, as in Avid, account for trim on each track, one way or the other.

For auditing the cut, there's a nice new checkbox in User Prefs ((Option-Q) under the Editing Tab which mutes all tracks except your primary edit selection.

[4. drag insert (segment insert on the avid)...t sometimes moves the clip as an insert, sometimes as an overwrite. it must be related to some sequence of keystrokes, but i'm not clear what they are. ]

And sometimes Swap Edit-- (curved cursor)! Do your dragging with Snap enabled (N key), it makes landing easier, assuming you wish to land at a cut. Normally, select first, begin drag, then invoke Option and watch the cursor. If it's going to Duplicate instead of Swap or Insert, you'll see a Plus sign.

Also, don't waste time looking for Snap To Head or Snap to Tail, it's just Snap to Cut here. You can press N to enable Snap while dragging if it's off, and vice versa. Nice feature.

Use your Command key during any segment drag to "gear down" the drag for greater precision.

HAPPY NEW YEAR LAFCPUG!!

- Loren
Today's FCP 4 / 5 keytip:
Do a virtual Audio Mixdown to lighten playback load with Command-Option-R!

The FCP KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

> 3. in an assymetrical trim, how do i select which
> of those edit points i'm monitoring...

Nicely covered by others, but the keyboard can help here too.

In the trim window press U to toggle between incoming clip (ripple), outgoing clip (ripple), and both (roll). The green bars at the top of your images tell you what's active. [ and ] to trim by one frame, etc.

derekmok Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > 1. audio trims - i can't hear audio trims unless
> i'm in the dynamic mode using the JKL keys.
>
> Turn on View - Audio Scrubbing.

several people mention this, and it is an obvious solution, but i still don't hear anything. i wonder what i'm missing...

> > 2. then, the 'trim edit' window let's me use the
> dynamic function to choose the edit point
> > realtime. but when i'm trimming audio i can't
> see picture. or, i can work in the timeline, and
> > see the picture, but i can't work realtime and
> can't hear anything.
>
> Open up the audio in the Viewer window and do it
> there. Much faster waveform graphs, and the
> ability to trim 1/100th of a frame. I don't see
> why you'd have to see picture at the same time; if
> you want waveforms and to see picture, and your
> audio and video aren't linked, then you'd have to
> turn on Sequence Settings (APPLE-0), Timeline
> Options, Waveform Display.

i'm not actually interested in waveforms, i just want to see picture while i'm trimming sound, for various reasons.

> > 3. in an assymetrical trim, how do i select
> which of those edit points i'm monitoring, since
> > there is usually one primary focus of the trim,
> and other tracks are merely being slipped to
> > maintain sync.
>
> In the Trim window? Click on the side of the edit
> you want to change and you'll switch to ripple
> mode. In the timeline, use the Ripple tool (RR)
> instead of Roll (R).

i must not be asking this right. if i'm trimming assymetrically, on say one video track and eight audio tracks, all cutting in different places, and as i trim i want to be hearing audio track two at ITS edit point, how do i choose that?

thanks for your help tho...

Loren Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What Derek and John said. Familiar migration
> pains. Many of us have been there.
>
> [1. audio trims - i can't hear audio trims unless
> i'm in the dynamic mode using the JKL keys.]
>
> Shift-S will toggle Audio scrub. Also, don't go
> looking for Audit Trim Side, not available yet.

hmm, i'm doing something wrong here, 'cause i get nada.

> [2. or, I can work in the timeline, and see the
> picture, but i can't work realtime and can't hear
> anything.]
>
> Again, scrub toggle may be off. You'll probably
> enjoy Timeline editing much more than Big Trim
> Edit Window, even with its dynamic trimming
> features, but it's personal taste. Myself, I'm a
> timeline nut.

i'll have to experiment more with that and see how i adapt...


> Go here to check out key commands for "live"
> iterative playback trimming using Plus-Minus-value
> keys:
>
> Keys to Speed

thanks, i'll check those out...

> [3. in an asymmetrical trim, how do I select which
> of those edit points i'm monitoring, ...(and
> hopefully be able to hear the audio as i trim). ]
>
> Tailor your asymmetrical cut using Command-clicks
> with the Ripple tool chosen (R-R). You can click
> left or right side of secondary cuts on any track
> to regulate how they trim, much lke Avid.
> Highlights instead of pink rollers. of course, as
> in Avid, account for trim on each track, one way
> or the other.
>
> For auditing the cut, there's a nice new checkbox
> in User Prefs ((Option-Q) under the Editing Tab
> which mutes all tracks except your primary edit
> selection.

yeah, this still doesn't quite address my problem. the audio edits may be spread around at different points in time, and i want to choose which point in time i'm monitoring, say the B side of the edit on track 2, but as i trim it seems to be monitoring at the picture cut point in time. i'll keep experimenting with this...

> [4. drag insert (segment insert on the avid)...t
> sometimes moves the clip as an insert, sometimes
> as an overwrite. it must be related to some
> sequence of keystrokes, but i'm not clear what
> they are. ]
>
> And sometimes Swap Edit-- (curved cursor)! Do your
> dragging with Snap enabled (N key), it makes
> landing easier, assuming you wish to land at a
> cut. Normally, select first, begin drag, then
> invoke Option and watch the cursor. If it's going
> to Duplicate instead of Swap or Insert, you'll see
> a Plus sign.

thanks. that helps.

> Also, don't waste time looking for Snap To Head or
> Snap to Tail, it's just Snap to Cut here. You can
> press N to enable Snap while dragging if it's off,
> and vice versa. Nice feature.

i do like some of the 'live' features in FCP. the avid usually goes dead except for whatever particular function is active.

> Use your Command key during any segment drag to
> "gear down" the drag for greater precision.

nice. thanks for the help!

1. AFAIK it's not possible to get the audio scrubbing when directly trimming an edit point in the timeline. As you've discovered, the only place you can get audio scrubbing while trimming is in the Trim Edit Window with JKL/Dynamic Trim or by moving the playhead and remarking the in/out points.

2. AFAIK what you want to do (and I know exactly what you're looking for) is not possible in FCP. If you're trimming a split edit and you want to monitor the audio edit point while trimming then you have to change the Track popup at the top centre of the Trim Edit window to the audio track in question. When you select an audio track then the video image is replaced by speaker icons.

You could try using the "park playhead then drag the edit point to it" technique. Will only work with roll edits and ripple edits (when removing frames) but basically works by scrubbing the playhead to your new desired in/out point, selecting roll or ripple tool and then dragging the desired edit point so it snaps to the playhead.

3. As above but also look at p373/4 of the PDF manual (Help > Final Cut Pro User Manual) which explains the audio monitoring options on the User Preferences > Editing tab.

4. You might find it useful to watch our most recent episode of our Hot Tips video podcast as it specifically covers using the Option key in the Timeline.

Happy New Year everyone!

Martin Baker
[www.digital-heaven.co.uk]
Unique plug-ins and tools for Apple Pro Apps

these are good answers, and seem to really understand my troubles - even if they aren't the answers i want! but i can handle the truth...

hi martin,

thanks for understanding my questions! one issue remains you might be able to steer me right on:

i'm trying to drag a clip and insert it in another part of the timeline. you led me to your podcast, which was very clear and helpful, but mine still doesn't work as shown. i'm thinking it may have to do with the fact i've remapped the keyboard, though i'm very careful and understand the implications of that in most situations.

i this one, i can't see where the remapping would be causing the problem, but it's all i can think of. when i click on the clip, i begin to drag to the new destination and THEN push option, as i drag i get the curved arrow but it also has a tiny arrow pointing right, and then when i release it overwrites.

any thoughts?

much appreciated...

jh

After dragging, you're definitely releasing the mouse button first and then releasing the option key?

Martin Baker
[www.digital-heaven.co.uk]
Unique plug-ins and tools for Apple Pro Apps

yes, definitely.

Sorry, no idea then, it's always worked fine for me.

Martin Baker
[www.digital-heaven.co.uk]
Unique plug-ins and tools for Apple Pro Apps

do you know what the curved arrow with the tiny arrow under it means? maybe i can work back from there knowing what command i'm inadvertently giving...

thanks for your help,

jh

It means you're in shuffle mode, so the option key was pressed after starting to drag a clip.

Martin Baker
[www.digital-heaven.co.uk]
Unique plug-ins and tools for Apple Pro Apps

if you're interested, i finally figured this out (after sitting with my assistants and puzzling over it). the issue is that you HAVE to let go of the mouse click BEFORE the option is released. i was letting go of them simultaneously, and that doesn't work, ever. it needs to be a one-two thing - release click, release option. also, if it's just picture that's moving, the linked selection needs to be OFF or it won't work.

kind of clunky, but that's the solution.

That's absolutely right. You had me worried there for a sec :-)

Martin Baker
[www.digital-heaven.co.uk]
Unique plug-ins and tools for Apple Pro Apps