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FEATURE FILM WORKFLOW - sony V1U - WEIGH IN HERE
Posted by putchfilms
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Re: FEATURE FILM WORKFLOW - sony V1U - WEIGH IN HERE July 12, 2007 09:34PM |
I think its a bit rough asking people for opinions and then effectively ignoring their advice by continuing to ask people for advice on the same topic over and over again. How many experts do you need to collect before you can release the findings? You've already gotten free advice from six of the top dv guys in the world - has that not been enough?
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Re: FEATURE FILM WORKFLOW - sony V1U - WEIGH IN HERE July 12, 2007 10:01PM |
>>which I will share once I cull some more opinions. <<
And I'm sharing my opinion, too.
And I'm sharing my opinion, too.
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Re: FEATURE FILM WORKFLOW - sony V1U - WEIGH IN HERE July 12, 2007 10:11PM |
Here ya go folks:
LARRY JORDAN:
Convert to ProRes 422 on capture and use ProRes for the rest of your process.
BRAD WRIGHT:
You might want consider going HDV 24p to Pro Res 4:2:2. My feeling is that if you can capture out of the camera analog directly into the AJA HD device that does Pro Res via firewire 800, it will give you the best looking image. However, the AJA device is $3k, but I think that because you would be in 4:2:2 color versus 3:1:1 in HDCAM, it should look better.
If I had the choice, this is what I would use:
1. AJA HD external box to Pro Res 4:2:2
2. MacBook Pro 17" screen for full HD monitoring (1920x1280 Resolution).
3. SATA raid array via express 34 card slot. (Firmtek SATA express 34 card and dual drive raid array or pick your favorite vendor here).
4. Veescope Live to check all the color and video levels and view full screen HD capture. (I'm biased here because I wrote it, of course). The new version of Veescope Live has this full screen mode, which allows you to quickly fill the entire screen with video "Apple-F". If you have any Green Screen shots, Veescope Live will do the live chroma keying.
What I haven't done is test the setup of the AJA external box and and a 17" MacBook Pro. So alternatively, you could capture with HDVxDV and convert to Pro Res with HDVxDV, but you would be filtering the image through a 4:1:1 MPEG2, versus direct capture to Pro Res 4:2:2. This would be fine for some shots if you couldn't bring the laptop and the AJA device along. Heck, HDV didn't stop the "An Inconvenient Truth" from taking the Oscar.
MICHAEL HORTON:
What Brad said.
You might want to post this on our forum. You'll get a lot of good ideas.
[www.lafcpug.org]
ADAM WILT:
I'd go ProRes if I had the disk bandwidth for it, AIC otherwise. While HDV editing works well, renders are painful (for making eval tapes, playing out FireWire, and the like), and you'll still want to swap over to ProRes/AIC/uncompressed for your final render anyway. If you start off with the higher-quality timeline format, you'll have quicker intermediate renders, and you won't be wondering, "is that artifact there on the source clip, or was it created by this render?"
If you want to use Cinema Tools to extract 24p, you'll need to go to ProRes (presumably; don't have FCS 2 yet, so I'm speculating), AIC, uncompressed, DVCPROHD, or other such codec anyway; CineTools refuses to work with long-GOP MPEG.
DVFilm Maker (http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/) doesn't appear to have the same limitations, and furthermore it auto-detects pulldown cadence, which can really speed workflow up. I haven't used the current version which supports HDV, so I can't speak to its conversion speed or quality.
Good luck! Let us know which workflow you settle on and what issues/annoyances arise.
JODY ELDRED:
Hi John,
The other guys you're asking are way above my paygrade with regard to technical workflow solutions. I am honored that you include me among them.
I can tell you from a production perspective that if it was my own money (and it often is), I would positively find a better camera to shoot with. The V1U makes nice pictures but it is practically impossible to get shallow depth of field, and of course while it scans in true 24P, it records only 60i.
The zoom is too touchy to do subtle moves, and same applies to the focus control.
Consider renting an XDCAM HD, either an F350 or F330. They shoot true 24P, use larger 1/2" imagers, have "real" HD lenses that can achieve shallow depth of field, subtle zoom and focus controls, and offer far more control regarding color and latitude. My F350 is often indistinguishable from footage shot with my F900R.
The editing is a snap, with small file sizes (35 mbp/s or less), no log and capture required as you simple transfer over circled takes (or whatever shots you choose), ad this happens faster than real time (often x2).
The money you save in trying workarounds and other gymnastics in post would probably compensate for the additional camera rental cost, and you would be capturing a far, far better image than anything the V1U could do.
Even if the cost savings didn't equal out, on a feature film, shooting with the right tool is really more of a requirement than a luxury. Trim elsewhere. Don't scrimp on the singular tool for capturing your story.
Hope this helps,
Jody Eldred
PHILIP HODGETTS:
I would go to ProRes 422 from the start: either capture directly to it if you have an Intel machine with enough speed, *and* ProRes capture actually works on that system (some issues of dropped frames even on INtel seem to have arisen).
Failing real-time capture, I'd capture HDV native, then export to ProRes 422 and run through Cinema Tools to remove pulldown then you're set to work in a 23.976 timeline until it's time to output.
If the Kona can reverse pulldown from the component that would be the way to go. Right now we know that ProRes capture won't work on a PPC at all (according to Apple) and there are reports that even on Intel it's dropping frames during capture.
I'd probably capture via FireWire, convert to ProRes, then run through Cinema Tools to reverse telecine to 23.976 again. That's the path that I know would work
.
If you had an Octo MacPro I'd suggest trying the capture direct to ProRes, removing pulldown during capture (if that works).
Philip
ADAM WILT:
can i go out of the camera via firewire and set the capture setting in FCP to prores?
You'd have to check the FCP 6 docs, or try it out. I only have FCP 5.1.4, and even there, my main NLE is at 5.0.4 because I have a big show in mid-edit on it!
or do i go out component to my kona card?
You might even consider getting that $250 Blackmagic card that takes in HDMI, and capture that way. With any luck, the bmd drivers will allow capture to ProRes and do pulldown removal at the same time.
Cheers,
AJW
www.putchfilms.com
Www.route30trilogy.com
Fatherandthebear.com
LARRY JORDAN:
Convert to ProRes 422 on capture and use ProRes for the rest of your process.
BRAD WRIGHT:
You might want consider going HDV 24p to Pro Res 4:2:2. My feeling is that if you can capture out of the camera analog directly into the AJA HD device that does Pro Res via firewire 800, it will give you the best looking image. However, the AJA device is $3k, but I think that because you would be in 4:2:2 color versus 3:1:1 in HDCAM, it should look better.
If I had the choice, this is what I would use:
1. AJA HD external box to Pro Res 4:2:2
2. MacBook Pro 17" screen for full HD monitoring (1920x1280 Resolution).
3. SATA raid array via express 34 card slot. (Firmtek SATA express 34 card and dual drive raid array or pick your favorite vendor here).
4. Veescope Live to check all the color and video levels and view full screen HD capture. (I'm biased here because I wrote it, of course). The new version of Veescope Live has this full screen mode, which allows you to quickly fill the entire screen with video "Apple-F". If you have any Green Screen shots, Veescope Live will do the live chroma keying.
What I haven't done is test the setup of the AJA external box and and a 17" MacBook Pro. So alternatively, you could capture with HDVxDV and convert to Pro Res with HDVxDV, but you would be filtering the image through a 4:1:1 MPEG2, versus direct capture to Pro Res 4:2:2. This would be fine for some shots if you couldn't bring the laptop and the AJA device along. Heck, HDV didn't stop the "An Inconvenient Truth" from taking the Oscar.
MICHAEL HORTON:
What Brad said.
You might want to post this on our forum. You'll get a lot of good ideas.
[www.lafcpug.org]
ADAM WILT:
I'd go ProRes if I had the disk bandwidth for it, AIC otherwise. While HDV editing works well, renders are painful (for making eval tapes, playing out FireWire, and the like), and you'll still want to swap over to ProRes/AIC/uncompressed for your final render anyway. If you start off with the higher-quality timeline format, you'll have quicker intermediate renders, and you won't be wondering, "is that artifact there on the source clip, or was it created by this render?"
If you want to use Cinema Tools to extract 24p, you'll need to go to ProRes (presumably; don't have FCS 2 yet, so I'm speculating), AIC, uncompressed, DVCPROHD, or other such codec anyway; CineTools refuses to work with long-GOP MPEG.
DVFilm Maker (http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/) doesn't appear to have the same limitations, and furthermore it auto-detects pulldown cadence, which can really speed workflow up. I haven't used the current version which supports HDV, so I can't speak to its conversion speed or quality.
Good luck! Let us know which workflow you settle on and what issues/annoyances arise.
JODY ELDRED:
Hi John,
The other guys you're asking are way above my paygrade with regard to technical workflow solutions. I am honored that you include me among them.
I can tell you from a production perspective that if it was my own money (and it often is), I would positively find a better camera to shoot with. The V1U makes nice pictures but it is practically impossible to get shallow depth of field, and of course while it scans in true 24P, it records only 60i.
The zoom is too touchy to do subtle moves, and same applies to the focus control.
Consider renting an XDCAM HD, either an F350 or F330. They shoot true 24P, use larger 1/2" imagers, have "real" HD lenses that can achieve shallow depth of field, subtle zoom and focus controls, and offer far more control regarding color and latitude. My F350 is often indistinguishable from footage shot with my F900R.
The editing is a snap, with small file sizes (35 mbp/s or less), no log and capture required as you simple transfer over circled takes (or whatever shots you choose), ad this happens faster than real time (often x2).
The money you save in trying workarounds and other gymnastics in post would probably compensate for the additional camera rental cost, and you would be capturing a far, far better image than anything the V1U could do.
Even if the cost savings didn't equal out, on a feature film, shooting with the right tool is really more of a requirement than a luxury. Trim elsewhere. Don't scrimp on the singular tool for capturing your story.
Hope this helps,
Jody Eldred
PHILIP HODGETTS:
I would go to ProRes 422 from the start: either capture directly to it if you have an Intel machine with enough speed, *and* ProRes capture actually works on that system (some issues of dropped frames even on INtel seem to have arisen).
Failing real-time capture, I'd capture HDV native, then export to ProRes 422 and run through Cinema Tools to remove pulldown then you're set to work in a 23.976 timeline until it's time to output.
If the Kona can reverse pulldown from the component that would be the way to go. Right now we know that ProRes capture won't work on a PPC at all (according to Apple) and there are reports that even on Intel it's dropping frames during capture.
I'd probably capture via FireWire, convert to ProRes, then run through Cinema Tools to reverse telecine to 23.976 again. That's the path that I know would work
.
If you had an Octo MacPro I'd suggest trying the capture direct to ProRes, removing pulldown during capture (if that works).
Philip
ADAM WILT:
can i go out of the camera via firewire and set the capture setting in FCP to prores?
You'd have to check the FCP 6 docs, or try it out. I only have FCP 5.1.4, and even there, my main NLE is at 5.0.4 because I have a big show in mid-edit on it!
or do i go out component to my kona card?
You might even consider getting that $250 Blackmagic card that takes in HDMI, and capture that way. With any luck, the bmd drivers will allow capture to ProRes and do pulldown removal at the same time.
Cheers,
AJW
www.putchfilms.com
Www.route30trilogy.com
Fatherandthebear.com
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Re: FEATURE FILM WORKFLOW - sony V1U - WEIGH IN HERE July 12, 2007 10:14PM |
HERE YA GO FOLKS!
LARRY JORDAN:
Convert to ProRes 422 on capture and use ProRes for the rest of your process.
BRAD WRIGHT:
You might want consider going HDV 24p to Pro Res 4:2:2. My feeling is that if you can capture out of the camera analog directly into the AJA HD device that does Pro Res via firewire 800, it will give you the best looking image. However, the AJA device is $3k, but I think that because you would be in 4:2:2 color versus 3:1:1 in HDCAM, it should look better.
If I had the choice, this is what I would use:
1. AJA HD external box to Pro Res 4:2:2
2. MacBook Pro 17" screen for full HD monitoring (1920x1280 Resolution).
3. SATA raid array via express 34 card slot. (Firmtek SATA express 34 card and dual drive raid array or pick your favorite vendor here).
4. Veescope Live to check all the color and video levels and view full screen HD capture. (I'm biased here because I wrote it, of course). The new version of Veescope Live has this full screen mode, which allows you to quickly fill the entire screen with video "Apple-F". If you have any Green Screen shots, Veescope Live will do the live chroma keying.
What I haven't done is test the setup of the AJA external box and and a 17" MacBook Pro. So alternatively, you could capture with HDVxDV and convert to Pro Res with HDVxDV, but you would be filtering the image through a 4:1:1 MPEG2, versus direct capture to Pro Res 4:2:2. This would be fine for some shots if you couldn't bring the laptop and the AJA device along. Heck, HDV didn't stop the "An Inconvenient Truth" from taking the Oscar.
MICHAEL HORTON:
What Brad said.
You might want to post this on our forum. You'll get a lot of good ideas.
[www.lafcpug.org]
ADAM WILT:
I'd go ProRes if I had the disk bandwidth for it, AIC otherwise. While HDV editing works well, renders are painful (for making eval tapes, playing out FireWire, and the like), and you'll still want to swap over to ProRes/AIC/uncompressed for your final render anyway. If you start off with the higher-quality timeline format, you'll have quicker intermediate renders, and you won't be wondering, "is that artifact there on the source clip, or was it created by this render?"
If you want to use Cinema Tools to extract 24p, you'll need to go to ProRes (presumably; don't have FCS 2 yet, so I'm speculating), AIC, uncompressed, DVCPROHD, or other such codec anyway; CineTools refuses to work with long-GOP MPEG.
DVFilm Maker (http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/) doesn't appear to have the same limitations, and furthermore it auto-detects pulldown cadence, which can really speed workflow up. I haven't used the current version which supports HDV, so I can't speak to its conversion speed or quality.
Good luck! Let us know which workflow you settle on and what issues/annoyances arise.
JODY ELDRED:
Hi John,
The other guys you're asking are way above my paygrade with regard to technical workflow solutions. I am honored that you include me among them.
I can tell you from a production perspective that if it was my own money (and it often is), I would positively find a better camera to shoot with. The V1U makes nice pictures but it is practically impossible to get shallow depth of field, and of course while it scans in true 24P, it records only 60i.
The zoom is too touchy to do subtle moves, and same applies to the focus control.
Consider renting an XDCAM HD, either an F350 or F330. They shoot true 24P, use larger 1/2" imagers, have "real" HD lenses that can achieve shallow depth of field, subtle zoom and focus controls, and offer far more control regarding color and latitude. My F350 is often indistinguishable from footage shot with my F900R.
The editing is a snap, with small file sizes (35 mbp/s or less), no log and capture required as you simple transfer over circled takes (or whatever shots you choose), ad this happens faster than real time (often x2).
The money you save in trying workarounds and other gymnastics in post would probably compensate for the additional camera rental cost, and you would be capturing a far, far better image than anything the V1U could do.
Even if the cost savings didn't equal out, on a feature film, shooting with the right tool is really more of a requirement than a luxury. Trim elsewhere. Don't scrimp on the singular tool for capturing your story.
Hope this helps,
Jody Eldred
PHILIP HODGETTS:
I would go to ProRes 422 from the start: either capture directly to it if you have an Intel machine with enough speed, *and* ProRes capture actually works on that system (some issues of dropped frames even on INtel seem to have arisen).
Failing real-time capture, I'd capture HDV native, then export to ProRes 422 and run through Cinema Tools to remove pulldown then you're set to work in a 23.976 timeline until it's time to output.
If the Kona can reverse pulldown from the component that would be the way to go. Right now we know that ProRes capture won't work on a PPC at all (according to Apple) and there are reports that even on Intel it's dropping frames during capture.
I'd probably capture via FireWire, convert to ProRes, then run through Cinema Tools to reverse telecine to 23.976 again. That's the path that I know would work.
If you had an Octo MacPro I'd suggest trying the capture direct to ProRes, removing pulldown during capture (if that works).
Philip
ADAM WILT:
can i go out of the camera via firewire and set the capture setting in FCP to prores?
You'd have to check the FCP 6 docs, or try it out. I only have FCP 5.1.4, and even there, my main NLE is at 5.0.4 because I have a big show in mid-edit on it!
or do i go out component to my kona card?
You might even consider getting that $250 Blackmagic card that takes in HDMI, and capture that way. With any luck, the bmd drivers will allow capture to ProRes and do pulldown removal at the same time.
Cheers,
AJW
www.putchfilms.com
Www.route30trilogy.com
Fatherandthebear.com
LARRY JORDAN:
Convert to ProRes 422 on capture and use ProRes for the rest of your process.
BRAD WRIGHT:
You might want consider going HDV 24p to Pro Res 4:2:2. My feeling is that if you can capture out of the camera analog directly into the AJA HD device that does Pro Res via firewire 800, it will give you the best looking image. However, the AJA device is $3k, but I think that because you would be in 4:2:2 color versus 3:1:1 in HDCAM, it should look better.
If I had the choice, this is what I would use:
1. AJA HD external box to Pro Res 4:2:2
2. MacBook Pro 17" screen for full HD monitoring (1920x1280 Resolution).
3. SATA raid array via express 34 card slot. (Firmtek SATA express 34 card and dual drive raid array or pick your favorite vendor here).
4. Veescope Live to check all the color and video levels and view full screen HD capture. (I'm biased here because I wrote it, of course). The new version of Veescope Live has this full screen mode, which allows you to quickly fill the entire screen with video "Apple-F". If you have any Green Screen shots, Veescope Live will do the live chroma keying.
What I haven't done is test the setup of the AJA external box and and a 17" MacBook Pro. So alternatively, you could capture with HDVxDV and convert to Pro Res with HDVxDV, but you would be filtering the image through a 4:1:1 MPEG2, versus direct capture to Pro Res 4:2:2. This would be fine for some shots if you couldn't bring the laptop and the AJA device along. Heck, HDV didn't stop the "An Inconvenient Truth" from taking the Oscar.
MICHAEL HORTON:
What Brad said.
You might want to post this on our forum. You'll get a lot of good ideas.
[www.lafcpug.org]
ADAM WILT:
I'd go ProRes if I had the disk bandwidth for it, AIC otherwise. While HDV editing works well, renders are painful (for making eval tapes, playing out FireWire, and the like), and you'll still want to swap over to ProRes/AIC/uncompressed for your final render anyway. If you start off with the higher-quality timeline format, you'll have quicker intermediate renders, and you won't be wondering, "is that artifact there on the source clip, or was it created by this render?"
If you want to use Cinema Tools to extract 24p, you'll need to go to ProRes (presumably; don't have FCS 2 yet, so I'm speculating), AIC, uncompressed, DVCPROHD, or other such codec anyway; CineTools refuses to work with long-GOP MPEG.
DVFilm Maker (http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/) doesn't appear to have the same limitations, and furthermore it auto-detects pulldown cadence, which can really speed workflow up. I haven't used the current version which supports HDV, so I can't speak to its conversion speed or quality.
Good luck! Let us know which workflow you settle on and what issues/annoyances arise.
JODY ELDRED:
Hi John,
The other guys you're asking are way above my paygrade with regard to technical workflow solutions. I am honored that you include me among them.
I can tell you from a production perspective that if it was my own money (and it often is), I would positively find a better camera to shoot with. The V1U makes nice pictures but it is practically impossible to get shallow depth of field, and of course while it scans in true 24P, it records only 60i.
The zoom is too touchy to do subtle moves, and same applies to the focus control.
Consider renting an XDCAM HD, either an F350 or F330. They shoot true 24P, use larger 1/2" imagers, have "real" HD lenses that can achieve shallow depth of field, subtle zoom and focus controls, and offer far more control regarding color and latitude. My F350 is often indistinguishable from footage shot with my F900R.
The editing is a snap, with small file sizes (35 mbp/s or less), no log and capture required as you simple transfer over circled takes (or whatever shots you choose), ad this happens faster than real time (often x2).
The money you save in trying workarounds and other gymnastics in post would probably compensate for the additional camera rental cost, and you would be capturing a far, far better image than anything the V1U could do.
Even if the cost savings didn't equal out, on a feature film, shooting with the right tool is really more of a requirement than a luxury. Trim elsewhere. Don't scrimp on the singular tool for capturing your story.
Hope this helps,
Jody Eldred
PHILIP HODGETTS:
I would go to ProRes 422 from the start: either capture directly to it if you have an Intel machine with enough speed, *and* ProRes capture actually works on that system (some issues of dropped frames even on INtel seem to have arisen).
Failing real-time capture, I'd capture HDV native, then export to ProRes 422 and run through Cinema Tools to remove pulldown then you're set to work in a 23.976 timeline until it's time to output.
If the Kona can reverse pulldown from the component that would be the way to go. Right now we know that ProRes capture won't work on a PPC at all (according to Apple) and there are reports that even on Intel it's dropping frames during capture.
I'd probably capture via FireWire, convert to ProRes, then run through Cinema Tools to reverse telecine to 23.976 again. That's the path that I know would work
.
If you had an Octo MacPro I'd suggest trying the capture direct to ProRes, removing pulldown during capture (if that works).
Philip
ADAM WILT:
can i go out of the camera via firewire and set the capture setting in FCP to prores?
You'd have to check the FCP 6 docs, or try it out. I only have FCP 5.1.4, and even there, my main NLE is at 5.0.4 because I have a big show in mid-edit on it!
or do i go out component to my kona card?
You might even consider getting that $250 Blackmagic card that takes in HDMI, and capture that way. With any luck, the bmd drivers will allow capture to ProRes and do pulldown removal at the same time.
Cheers,
AJW
www.putchfilms.com
Www.route30trilogy.com
Fatherandthebear.com
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