OT -- "timecodes"? or "timecode"?

Hi all,

It's happened many times before -- my annual dispute with a copy editor about my use of the word "timecode" as both the singular and the plural form -- kinda like "deer".

In my neighborhood, there are no "deers" -- and no "timecodes".

How about it? Do you ever refer to "timecodes" (plural) in your work place?

The print editors are ganging up on me, video editors...

Thanks.

Lisa B.

When I hit "I", I set the in-point timecode.

When I hit Option-I, then Option-O, I clear both the in and out timecodes.

Singular...unless you see multiple timecodes on your clip. For example if you have VIDEO TC and separate AUDIO TC...for when you have shot on film and recorded audio on DAT and have them linked when you telecine.

Otherwise...tape TC...singular. It is a single thing.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Isn't this one of those words that can be used in both the "incalculable" form (eg. "air", "water", "videotape" and "numerable" form (eg. "air bubbles", "water coolers", "videotapes"?

Examples:

I need to shoot on videotape because I don't have the budget to shoot film.
I need 20 videotapes for the shoot.

I have broken timecode on my tape. Proper timecode is very important for video editing.
The start timecode and end timecode look right to me. The timecodes on the two different tape outputs are consistent.


www.derekmok.com

The start timecode and end timecode look right to me. The timecodes on the two different tape outputs are consistent.

Yes..in that case there are MULTIPLE timecodes that are being mentioned. Because you are talking about multiple tapes. Even if you went "the timecodes on these two clips are different..." Again...multiple instances of timecode.

In what way would your friend use the word TIMECODES that made you question this?


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

So is it then Los Angeles Final Cut Pro USER Group or Los Angeles Final Cut Pro USERS Group?



Michael Horton
-------------------

"User's", Mike. Not.

8^)

Thanks, gentlemen.

I have always used singular unless I'm comparing two or more timecodes.

The timecodes on the two different tape outputs are consistent.
Compares. You need the plural.

This year's disputed sentence?

"FCP will import Broadcast Wave Format (BWF) digital audio files and their timecode?at long last."

This is borderline (files/timecodes matching), but I thought I'd get a sense of your day to day workplace usage before any more timecode gets pluraled.

> So is it then Los Angeles Final Cut Pro USER Group or Los Angeles Final Cut Pro USERS Group?

It would be "Los Angeles Final Cut Pro User Group", because the word "user" is being used adjectivally. For example, you would say "grocery store", not "groceries store"; "rifle ammunition", not "rifles ammunition". If the word is plural, then you'd have to say "Los Angeles Final Cut Pro Users' Group".

Go ahead, say it. I'm a nerd.


www.derekmok.com

> This year's disputed sentence?
> "FCP will import Broadcast Wave Format (BWF) digital audio files and their timecode?at long
> last."

The fact is, "timecode" is such a technical word that experienced editors would probably just use it correctly. Nobody ever pulled me aside to tell me to use it in singular form here and in plural form there. I'm guessing nobody ever told Shane specifically, either -- we just absorb it.

Lisa, I think your copy writers are being a bit unimaginative. I used to be a journalist and proofreader and when in doubt, paraphrase. There's a very easy way to avoid the issue altogether: Just make sure you use the word in adjectival form:

"FCP will import Broadcast Wave Format (BWF) digital audio files and their timecode information -- at long last."


www.derekmok.com

It's actually "users' group" - a group that belongs to the userS. Not a parallel concept to "grocery store" - the store doesn't belong to the groceries.

Nerd wars.

Scott

I'll pass it on.

thanks.

It's not actually a "users' group." It does not belong to the users. It belongs to Mike, or some other entity. The users have no ownership, except in spirit. It's the Final Cut Pro User Group. So it can be either FCP Users Group or FCP User Group, both are correct. The banner at the top says User Group, so I guess that's what it is.

I like:

"FCP will import a Broadcast Wave Format (BWF) digital audio file and its timecode -- at long last."

> It's actually "users' group" - a group that belongs to the users. Not a parallel concept to
> "grocery store" - the store doesn't belong to the groceries.

We're talking grammar, not a denotation of hierarchy. When used in this context, the apostrophe (possessive) does not just mean ownership. For example:

Vietnam Veterans' Association

is the same as

Association of Vietnam Veterans

or

Vietnam Veteran Association

The difference lies in whether you describe it using a possessive ("genitive case" in Latin and German, both roots of English) or a noun used adjectivally.


www.derekmok.com

What about

FCP will import a Broadcast Wave Format (BWF) digital audio file with accurate timecode - at long last.

That removes the pluralisation question too. As long as the timecode IS accurate, I guess.

OH, and

>>So is it the Los Angeles Final Cut Pro USER Group or Los Angeles Final Cut Pro USERS Group?<<

Apparently it's the Los Angeles Final Cut Pro GRAMMAR Group.

Which, yay.

See? Tom and Jude could replace your copy writers.

Language is elastic. That's the beauty.


www.derekmok.com

Quote
Language is elastic. That's the beauty.

Well, at least English is elastic. I'm a guessin.

Michael Horton
-------------------

Quote
Lisa
"FCP will import Broadcast Wave Format (BWF) digital audio files and their timecode?at long last."

Just to clarify 1: FCP always imported BWF files even version 1 is able to do that.
Just to clarify 2: BWF files don't have timecode.

As you are talking about timecode and timecodes - as said above there is nothing like that in BWF files ;-)
They do have a timestamp (or if you take some of them they have timestamps)

These timestamps have NOTHING to do with (SMPTE) timecode.
FCP does read the timestamp since version 5.1.4 (or 5.1.2). QT as well since version 7 whatever (I forgot).

FCP (depending on the version) uses some startup or user settings to create it's own special timecode from the timestamp of a BWAV file - without verifying whether this timecode matches the original idea of timecode of the sound recordist.
So talk to the production crew and ask what they did - it's in the file but FCP doesn't read the metadata.

I wrote such a lot about how to handle BWAV timing with FCP - and to be honest I can't understand why this issue always comes up again in such a wrong interpreted way.

Regards
Andreas

Thanks, Andreas. Life is short and the hours have been long, I guess.

"FCP will import a Broadcast Wave Format (BWF) digital audio file and its timestamp?at long last."


Thanks to all the kind and helpful denizens of LAFCPUG.

Of all the fantastic discussions on this site, this one might be my favorite.

- Matt

Especially since we were all looking so hard at the grammar that we completely missed the technical timecode vs timestamp issue. Funny!

Quote
Lisa B
Life is short and the hours have been long, I guess.

I totally agree Lisa !!!!!

Quote
Lisa B
"FCP will import a Broadcast Wave Format (BWF) digital audio file and its timestamp?at long last."

I agree with that as well -- but it seems to be not to be clear to users how it works. It may work or not with an actual project.

It's always something like "looking behind the scenes".
I got actually involved within a project where the editors love the timestamp import, but nothing fits.
Maybe Mike will allow to put an article on the FAQ -- and as Jude always says

Quote
Jude
The FAQ is what gives editors their power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together. Use the FAQ, Luke!

P.S.
Derek: your explanation of timecode vs timecodes was great

Andreas, I'd be very happy to add your expertise on BWFs to the FAQ. Have you got a link to a tutorial or something I can post? If there are a couple of standard problems that people have, we could have a few entries to keep it simpler to follow.

Jude, there is an article I wrote for FCP for FCP 5.1.2/5.1.4 at
[www.spherico.com]
which should give a basic understanding some of the things happening when working with Broadcast Wave files in general.

I haven't found the time to test all variations and update the tables for 6.x

The main difference between 5.1.x and 6.x is that the latter versions are able to interpret 29.97 DF settings (or NTSC timing at all) and allow an interpretation based upon current project settings (means the selected setup when creating a new project vs. the selected setup when you launched FCP version 5.1.x)

I'll try to update the article some time within the next 2 weeks.

Regards
Andreas