Equipment question: MacBook or Macbook Pro when money's an issue

I need to buy a computer and was hoping you guys could help me make a smart decision.
I am torn between a MB and a MBP. (money's obviously THE reason for my tourment)

1- I understand the MBP has a video card that is more appropriate to work with FCP.
Does this mean that you can NOT work comfortably on a MB?

2- Also, can you cut professionally on a MBP, meaning what's the deal with the whole Kona card which seems to be a basic of whole semi-pro installation?
2a- Can I upgrade the MBP?
2-b In fact do you absolutely need a KONA card to work and deliver pro results?

3- I have the feeling that the MBP is just a step up from the MB and is not a machine on which I could build a real working station (I am not talking full post house, but just to be able to work on projects that could come along and require a professional specs)
Do you agree?

4- Any of you guys work with a MB?
5- Do you think it'd be a good idea to go with a MB to start and eventually upgrade to a Mac Pro, skipping the MBP? Or should I spend another $600 and get a MBP?

By the way, if money wasn't an issue, here, i wouldn't be posting and I'd get a MBP and a Mac Pro.

Thanks

id spend the extra 600. get the best you can get within a reasonable reach. if 600 bucks is within 3 or 4 months id wait. i purchased a dual g5 1.8 when they hit the market and i can tell you that i have spent at least 2500 buck upgrading and that does not include drives.

if i had waited just 3 months i could have gotten the 2.6 version for about 750 more with better card and drive pre-installed. lets see thats a savings of about 1750.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

If you are talking about specifically using Final Cut Studio 2, then a MacBook Pro IS required and more so a 17" MBP. Ther reasons are many but specifically on the Apple web site under FCS2 it calls out the video cards that can work with Color and Motion and the latest MBP has those cards. Screen real estate is another consideration, even on the 15.4" MBP. You need more resolution than the 15" offers and that is why it is recommended to add a 23" Apple Cinema Display to edit on the 15" MBP.

On the other hand; if $$$$ is the major point of contention, why not go with a 24" iMac? It also has the proper video card and a LARGE screen? Both the MBP and the iMac do not have the appendages that allow updating the video card in the future, and the iMac must use Firewire expansion drives (Yech) - but the MBP has the Express 34 card slot to which you can attatch up to two 1TB SATA drives for expansion.

If you want top performance, you need to build out a top performer MAC.

Thanks guys.
Very helpful.
I need a laptop though and I kind of like the idea of the iMac. Why not a refurbished MB and later on an iMac...
I'll sleep on it.

here is a side thought. and im gonna get yelled at here. have you considered premiere pro on a windows machine? i downloaded the demo on to my hp laptop sunday night and have been surprisingly very impressed with its performance. and it behaves nearly identically (and admittedly) kind of better than FCP

and it behaves nearly identically (and admittedly) kind of better than FCP

shame / joe / mike, get the rope we have gotta take care of the premier guy. he's gone too far and i am not gonna stand for it in this town.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

Shame?

I am always an advocate for getting the NLE that works for you. I don't think there is ONE NLE TO RULE THEM ALL. I like FCP, I like Avid, and I know Premiere and the whole CS bundle has a leg up in MANY ways. People need to determine what they want to accomplish, and get the editing system that allows them to do that, in the easiest way possible.

Xavpil...the macbook is not upgradable at all, nor is the imac...other than RAM. The MacBook Pro has the Express 34 slot, in which you can add another firewire bus, eSATA card...many things. PLUS, it has a DVI port....the MB does not. The DVI port allows you to connect another monitor, AND you can connect a matrox MXO and add professional monitoring to the laptop, and output to many different tape formats. And if you spring for the AJA I/O HD...then your options have greatly increased.

The MacPro would be the better option, but if you want ANY sort of professional setup, get the MBP. But this is all based on what you are working with and what your needs are. If you are DV/HDV strictly, then a MB would be fine. But, if you need to deliver professional tape formats, the MacPro is the best option, with the MBP coming in second.

Review your needs, buy based on that.


www.shanerosseditor.com

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premiere pro on a windows machine

Unfortunately not really considered a pro app for pro work despite having pro in the name...

However in its defence they did use it with a Blackmagic Card on Superman the Return.

I use a MBP 17" on Location or Hotel Room edits and its absolutely fine for DV, SD uncompressed 8bit and DVCproHD when using a fast FW800 RAID.

Yes another screen helps but you could buy a small 15" widescreen from Dell quite cheaply to extend the desktop until you can afford a decent 30"!!!

Its a good machine but if you are cutting regularly then a 17" is just that bit more comfortable.

An external extended keyboard and a mouse and/or Wacom tablet is also a must.



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

> shame / joe / mike, get the rope we have gotta take care of the premier guy. he's gone too far
> and i am not gonna stand for it in this town.

Who cares? You can cut on iMovie if you can produce great work with it. The bigger the project, in fact, the fewer tricks you often need because your effects, titles, sound mix etc. will be done by something else. A system that can do straight cuts and dissolves can handle many narrative films.

When it comes to preferences, you can say anything you want as long as you're not slamming another person's opinion.


www.derekmok.com

yeah, i hate to even mention premiere and windows at all - much less in THIS room ; )

but i was really surprised at how similar it works as compared to final cut pro - AND how much more responsive it was even on what should be a lower spec machine.

it didnt come with any HD codecs/presets - so as soon as i can straighten that out and do some dvdprohd/p2 side by side testing. ill be able to make a bit more informed comparisons.

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premiere pro on a windows machine

Going OT for a second...nope, won't endorse that. Maybe Premiere on a Mac, but I would never consciously recommend that anyone do anything on a PC.

The OctoCore is the beginning of real supercomputing for mac fanatics. I just finished a clean install & ran a C4D test

G5 Dual 2.5 (PPC) / 3.5 Gig RAM / OS 10.4.10
1920x1080 Tiff / Ambient Occlusion Activated = 1 hour / 45 minutes per frame

G5 OctoCore (Intel) / 8 Gig RAM / OS 10.4.10
1920x1080 Tiff / Ambient Occlusion Activated = 13 minutes per frame

Back OT...Shane (not "SHAME" is spot on...Review your needs, buy based on that. Don't let a few hundred $$$ stop you from getting what you need. "Better to have more than less" I always say (power / money / credit / friends / etc).

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

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grafixjoe
G5 Dual 2.5 (PPC) / 3.5 Gig RAM / OS 10.4.10
1920x1080 Tiff / Ambient Occlusion Activated = 1 hour / 45 minutes per frame

G5 OctoCore (Intel) / 8 Gig RAM / OS 10.4.10
1920x1080 Tiff / Ambient Occlusion Activated = 13 minutes per frame

Holy Cow!!!

*Darren passes out*

Thanks, Shane.
I guess you sold me on the MBP!

Have to disagree with a post up the page from here that says FCS 2 can't work on a MacBook - it works just fine. Macbook Pro is zippier and makes Motion more pleasant to handle -- there are hard drive space considerations on the MacBook - but my daughter in College has the full suite installed on her Macbook and is cranking out projects every day. Andy

Premiere Pro is A LOT lke FCP. Some might say uncannily so. Any one of us could sit down at it and be editing in no time. It's almost exactly the same setup, but with a few less features. I'm surprised Apple isn't calling them on it, really, given how different older version of Premiere were to this one.

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joe
"Better to have more that less" I always say (power / money / credit / friends / etc).

you mean more than less..... ha got ya

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

J.Corbett,

Read a post more than once before posting a "gotcha" please.

Thanks

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

I switched from Prem Pro on PC's to FCP on macs about 18 months ago. I do not miss the PC and am completely sold on mac hardware but the Adobe NLE had some nice features. The trim edit window was my favourite, and though i've got used to the final cut one its not half as user friendly as prem pro's. The 3 way color wheels (and now Color) make FCP a much better deal in my opinion. Also, the Apple option is significantly cheaper.
Nonetheless, the Adobe production suite is definitely growing in stature over here (UK), and i wouln't be surprised if it wasn't in serious competition with Apple pretty soon.

I have heard a lot of good things about Premier. Most people say that it is as close to fcp as you can get without buying fcp.
I still don't totally understand photoshop and that is my main reason for being a slight shy on the premier system. I'm thinking that if i cant work in photo shop with easy then premier is gonna be a pain for me.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

> I still don't totally understand photoshop and that is my main reason for being a slight shy on
> the premier system. I'm thinking that if i cant work in photo shop with easy then premier is
> gonna be a pain for me.

Apples and oranges. I haven't worked with Premiere for a while, but the Adobe connection means nothing as far as I can tell -- knowing Photoshop will not make learning Premiere easier, or vice versa.


www.derekmok.com

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I still don't totally understand photoshop and that is my main reason for being a slight shy on the premier system

i still for the life of me cant figure out why photoshop is such a roadblock for you. thats the one program that even the hacker/housewife/hobbyists out there all use (without problems). if you can figure out FCP - photoshop should be CAKE?!?!?!??!

Maybe Photoshop Certification is in order:

[www.adobe.com]

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

going off topic but I think I'm going to do a survey of how FCP users use PS. My guess is that it is overkill for what they need and Elements would suffice or even Aperture.

Michael Horton
-------------------

Derek Wrote: "knowing Photoshop will not make learning Premiere easier"

Not sure how you came to that conclusion Derek?

Premiere Pro looks(and feels) like the kind of Programme that the makers of Photoshop would make if they decided to do a video version. Many of the icon's are identical and in many ways the two are joined at the hip. Also, Prem Pro have modeled their system along the lines of FCP so the switch between the two is effortless. For me the change was more to do with the different OS's than the NLE's.
I tend to sympathise with J. Corbett re Photoshop.Probably because i haven't needed to engage with the programme to the same extent i have with my NLE's, but if youre reasonably competent on Photoshop and you know FCP, you can switch between these two App's with ease.
I started playing with Adopbe's InDesign the other day, and definitely felt familiar with it from the start. Premiere Pro also has that familiarity to Photoshop, and also to Final Cut Pro.
When you consider it ships with After Effects as well as all the rest, you know its a formidable competitor to FCS.

You can build some pretty nice overlays in PS. Its good for signatures and hand sketches are pretty easy there. It is good for animation and still filters.

FCP is my first pro app. So when i have to click enter after every change it starts being quite bothersome and seemingly unnecessary. I have CS 1st gen and it maybe its a little more cumbersome than later versions.

I think its silly to have to open a file before you can place it into a composite rather than to just drag and drop. I don't like having files in my iPhoto library that PS wont recognize as usable. Minor shifts are made to have extra steps rather than to be able to just continuously work without interruption of approving each and every little change. Its hard to get to filters for tweaks. It would seem to me that if i have an element selected i should be able to see the effects in some window without a bunch of extra clicking.
I don't like the histogram thing because cmd z is easier. If the histogram would allow you to go back and correct a point then allow you to keep all selected changes that took place after that it would be more sensible to me.

I haven't ever had a comfortability with the program. It feel way too different than practically any other program i have used. I understand C4D better.

I use it but only when there is no other option. Other people here find the program to be wonderful. I don't.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

im going to do some apples to apples testing from injest to final dvd in the next week or so between fcp and premiere pro. we'll see how that flushes out

ok now that we are totally OT:

wow! its starting to be a bit clearer now. i think youre working from a very incorrect set of assumptions...

if you expect to use photoshop and it be as boner proof as iphoto, youre way off the mark. and from your incorrect ps terminology i think you got fed some incorrect info about photoshop from the get go. the "histogram" is NOT the history tab.

i could teach you to love photoshop in about 2 hours.

Back on topic... New MacBooks (and MBPs) yesterday in the apple store. A new vid card in the MB. I bet the 2.2Ghz MacBook is a screamer, for the money. Not as much as the 2.6Ghz (!!) MBP, but still... that's a lot of editing power for $1200.