new fit to fill edit problems

For the documentary which I've been working on for the past year or more, the two main audio sources were recorded to two separate nagras (the actual filming of the doc took place in 1970 mind you) which were not running in sync with each other or with the cameras.

Typically what we had been doing to sync the sound was to set in and out points in the sequence where we knew two separate sounds would take place. Then in the audio reel we would set corresponding in and out points. Then we would use Fit to Fill to cut the audio into the timeline and drag out either end to match with the video clip.

This process had been working fine until recently (since the 6.0.2 update) when I've started to have trouble. When I drag one end of the fit-to-filled audio it moves the position of the audio clip so that a snare drum hit or other percussive sound is now out of sync. In past versions there might be a little slippage since changing the length of the clip in the timeline would slightly alter the speed. The problem, which had been easy to fix, is now far more drastic and, pardon my French, a complete pain in the ass.

Am I missing some kind of obscure setting or is this just a new problem?

Forgive me, have I got this wrong? Why are you doing this? Have you pre-merged your clips once you get 'em in synch-- using whatever you need to do to synch them?

Select both video and synched audio- up to 24 tracks-- and press Command-L? Then drag 'em to your bins? Once you do that, you have a merged clip with video and audio, you can cut them toegther into the timeline and ithe clip flags any future loss of synch with those bright red flags.

- Loren
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I think you missed the point Loren. He has audio that isn't synchronize-able as speed is not consistent from camera to Nagra1 to Nagra2 or minute by minute.
His fit-to-fill technique, and one I have used in a pinch, accounts for constant speed changes and drifts and is a heck of a lot of work but sometimes the only thing you can do with non-synched or even constant speed sources.

I haven't seen this behaviour yet Chris, but if it cropped up after the upgrade to 6.02 it might be a new "feature". Eliminate everything else by going back to some synching you did before the upgrade and repeating the same steps under 6.02 this time. That'll tell you what your future pain index is going to be. Be on the lookout for any new preferences that might have an effect on this. I don't have any v6.x at my disposal so a quick jaunt through the user prefs might be in order.

Music footage from 1970? This sounds like an interesting doc. keep us informed.

ak
Sleeplings, AWAKE!

Andrew, unfortunately this was a sequence that had, before the upgrade to v.6, been in sync. Believe me, I will never ever upgrade my software in the middle of a project.

This new problem is just a result of a larger problem that cropped up with the switch to 6. The following is a sob story about the woes of version 6:

Our process for syncing all the concert footage (it's a concert doc from a pop festival) was as I described. We tried to use the longest video clips (from camera start to camera start) to sync as much audio as possible. Then it was a big mess trying to sort through everything else since there was very little documentation. Once we had all the different cameras synced, we created multiclips within the sequence. While working in version 5, we were able to e-mail or FTP project files cross country where the other editor and I each had a set of media. Everything worked great and all was right with the world.

Ever since the upgrade we've noticed a couple kinks in our process. First, all of the multiclips are no longer running in sync -- that is, the 3-5 clips in each multiclip are no longer running in sync. Whichever clip was selected in the multiclip is still running in sync, bu the others are all out. It's really disturbing, but luckily everything that had been cut using the multiclip function was finished.

The strangest thing that changed was the audio. For all of the concert footage, there was a recording from the sound board and one from a crowd mic (there was also a multi-track recording done by Columbia). In every project all of the sound board recordings have lost their speed changes. The audience mic is still in sync in every project is still in sync with it's speed chance. The only difference between these two sets of recordings is the naming of the file.

So let this be a lesson to those who want to upgrade during a project without taking the steps outlined in other threads here.

Wow. Long post prod!

Have you thought of (and is it possible to) downgrade to FCP 5? I think there were issues with reconnecting files that were ported from 5 to 6. If everything was working well before, maybe it would save you a lot more time to spend half a day going back to FCP 5 and staying there till the doco is done. Painful, yes, but maybe less that the alternative in the long run.

Jude, if we were smart, we would have done that at the first sign of a problem. Unfortunately we have a couple months of work under our belts and it would be very difficult to re-create the work we've done since the upgrade. We're also very close to being finished with the cut all together (we're hoping to submit to Cannes).

An update and possible temporary solution:

When I move the audio clip that I've cut in with Fit to Fill up to the track above it, I stop having the issue where the position of the audio clip changes when I adjust the length of the clip. I can't explain why that happens or if it's even a good solution, but for anyone having a similar problem, give that a shot.

Interesting project! keep us updated! Hmm.. Haven't had the opportunity to use what you're describing, but i did notice some differences between the way fcp 6 and 5 handled speed changes in audio- I had a music clip with some speed alteration cut to beat in fcp 6. Sent it to 5 via xml, and apparently, some parts went off sync/speed. Why am i doing speed alteration to music in an NLE? Ask my producer.