HDV deck

Hi all, hopefully you can help. I have searched in the forums and done a bit of research via google and have a rough idea of what i need, but your experience is always an invaluable resource as well.

I use FCP Studio 2 on a macpro and a canon XH-A1. I have just started trying out the HDV side of the A1 and quite liked the footage. Obviously I had to use the A1 to capture the rushes and if I carry on with HDV I don't want to use it as a capture deck so I would like an HDV deck that I can use to capture and lay off HDV and SD.

Thing is I keep reading that the Sony decks (which at least through google searching seem to be my only realt option) only work with a specific flavour of HDV so I'm not sure if they'll work with the 1080i @ 50 fps that I use on my Canon.

Please would someone be able to recommend a deck that will serve my purposes. I would rather not spend over £1500 (really rather not) and a grand would be better, but I will listen to advice as I know money and quality are wedded.

[edit] this link: hdv video player is something i've seen that is really in my price range. will it suffice for my purposes or is it really just a gimic/toy. Remember I don't need to capture 40 hours at a time, usually 20 minutes to 4 hours max after a job and only a few times a week.



Also, I have read a few posts saying 'HDV... oooh, why/stear clear/etc'. I make videos for councils/charities/uni's/gov bodies etc, which aren't broadcast on TV but delivered on dvd and the web (as flash). Is my foray into HDV folly, or for my humble purposes actually a slight boon.

Many thanks.

Jules

""Is my foray into HDV folly, or for my humble purposes actually a slight boon""

HDV is what it IS! 4.2.0 color space with MPEG-2 codec (same as what goes onto a Red laser DVD.

As long as you use it without too much expectation for effects (green-blue screen keying) or too much titling, then HDV is fine. Don't try to pan it too fast in an action sequence, either.

But everyone has jumped on the HDV bandwagon, so there must be some satisfied users out there.

""only decks (which at least through google searching seem to be my only realt option) only work with a specific flavour of HDV""

There is also truth to that statement. It has long been known that Canon DV and Sony DV are not the same, I supposed that extends to the Sony- JVC and Canon cameras of today.

Canon must have an HDV "deck" solution of some sort available?

John Foley Wrote:
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>
> HDV is what it IS! 4.2.0 color space with MPEG-2
> codec (same as what goes onto a Red laser DVD.

So is XDCAM but there's a BIG difference in 35mbps VBR and the 25mbps CBR of HDV.

Jules is running in to a FUNDAMENTAL issue I have with HDV. Many people take of the simplicity of tape vs solid state. HDV isn't like DV. There's no "universal" deck to date. Sony, Canon, JVC all have different requirements depending on how it was shot. You can't really just hand off the tape to someone. Years from now when you want to play back that tape, you'll need to hunt for the right deck. So much for HDV tape archival. Tapes may last but decks may not.

Jules might want to try shooting in the various HDV modes with the camera and test in a Sony deck.

BTW I believe the Sony deck he links to uses a transport little better than (just as fragile as) a camera transport. It might be better to look for a deck that'll last a healthy decade. Keep in mind when the deck goes at that point you may have a hunt to find a compatible one. Basically though, compatibility, longevity, durability are key in a good deck. It may cost a bit more upfront but years down the road you'll be glad you spent the extra money. You'll save in maintenance and replacement.

Thanks both for your input, will take it on board. I'm going to have to have a look at the finished result of the HDV material as it may be more agro than it's worth considering what you've suggested. SD has stood me well so far, but the rushes did look crisper in HDV (or perhaps my use of the A1 is actually improving).

Any further comments or opinions will be read and appreciated, but thanks both.

Over tha past year I've consulted with four different post facilities to help them transition cost effectively to HD. One thing that I have had great success with is convincing the management of these facilities that they need to be able to deal well with all flavors of HD, which translates into building a shared, managed file system and working in a common post production intermediate.

A few of these facilities are working in uncompressed, most who take in uncompressed have gone to either the SheerVideo or Cineform codec, the majority are taking in DVCProHD and working with that codec and more recently one facility has been working with the ProRes codec.

Interestingly enough there has been a significant growth in the amount of HDV footage they have had to work with. So while a lot of people on forums have dismissed HDV, in much the same way as DV was when it was introduced, the usage of HDV seems to be growing much faster than any other format.

This is not an endorsement of HDV, in fact the first thing I tell everyone I work with is get out of that format as soon as practicable. But it is definately finding its way into just about every level of production.

The Canon A1 is a very impressive HDV camera. I don't believe Canon offers a deck, the decks that my clients use are these:

The Sony HVR-M25U
[www.bhphotovideo.com]

The Sony HVR-M15U
[www.bhphotovideo.com]

Although these are both more than you said what you wanted to spend I believe that the M15U will soon be erplaced so you might find it for a better deal if you shop around. The appeal of the M25U is that not only does it have an LCD display but it also has HDMI output. The last facility I worked with captured via HDMI using the BlackMagic Intensity card to ProRes in realtime.

I'm sure HDMI will find its way into lower priced decks. I think for what your doing HDV is not only a viable choice it may be the best choice. Just don't post produce in it. The absolute best SD-DVD's I've seen come from HDV were using the Cineform codec.

Chuck what you don't mention is what happens when they get HDV from Canon or, possibly even more challenging, JVC. Yes HDV is in wide use.

It's one thing when whether it's an indy producer or other entity in which they can buy a deck and matching camera, it's another when you're doing post and you may get stuff shot on Sony, Canon, JVC with various unique features and you need a deck for each or the original camera.

HDV tape is NOT something you can simply hand to a post house without them knowing how it was shot and on which camera.

My Sony DSR-11 could play any miniDV/DVCAM tape both PAL and NTSC and it didn't make a difference whether is was a Sony camera or a Panasonic shot in 24p.

When someone makes an HDV deck like that so you can drop in a tape shot on a Sony V1 or a JVC 250 and at a price a one person small post shop can handle, HDV will be OK to me.

It's not simply the 25mbps CBR long GOP (or shorter in JVC) but that it's multiple variations.

I have seen HDV footage from the Canon A1 and the only deck they have is the Sony HVR-M25U. And since Canon doesn't manufacture an HDV deck I'm guessing that the Canon HDV tapes work fine in the Sony Decks.

I have not however personally captured HDV footage shot on a canon with a Sony deck. I'll test it in a couple of weeks when I return to that facility.

Maybe in the meantime someone else can chime in here.

Plus, I'm not sure that there are that many variations of HDV, 1440x1080i long gop (Sony) and 1280x720p short gop (JVC).

Thanks Chuck, appreciate the time and acknowledgement that HDV may well work for me. The two dexks you mentioned I have come across and the M15U is the one i was considering if I couldn't find a cheaper viable option.

Craig also appreciate your comments but for me I am fortunate enough to do it all on my mac so yep I can find a deck that fits with my camera, and in a selfish way that's really all i wanted to know about. really i just want to make the work i do look as good as possible and it does seem at first glance that shooting in hdv then exporting to sd dvd looks better than doing it all in sd.

Many thanks all for posting, it's given me more knowledge about where to go.

Ta.

Jules

>>And since Canon doesn't manufacture an HDV deck I'm guessing that the Canon HDV tapes work fine in the Sony Decks. <<

As far as I know Canon and Sony are compatible, but JVC is not. So there are essentially two kinds of HDV - HDV1 and HDV2. I suppose if you got any JVC in you'd have to rent a deck, or not let the camera go until you had captured all the clips.

I've heard that people have had problems with Canon HDV shot in it's 24F and 30F modes in some Sony decks.

I believe the Sony HVR-M15 does NOT properly play back Canon's 24F or 30F modes. I believe the M35 can though. I've seen this posted on many forums (COW, DVInfo, DVXUser just to name 3).

Hence my statement about compatibility issues. HDV is fine if you're "in house" but can be a nightmare otherwise. And 10 years from now, when you need to replace your deck(s) what are you going to do?

A post house has to deal with this and they'd have to spring for the M35 as well as JVC deck. You're looking at $4500 to playback Canon (Sony M35 deck) and about $2700 for JVC (BR-50). So much for HDV being affordable!

I'd rather shoot XDCAM at that point. I can burn the XDCAM EX1 files to an optical disc and the client can either use the FREE Sony Clip Browser or FREE VLC Player to play the files from any reasonably fast new computer. No deck needed. No compatibility issues. Sony Vegas 8 and FCP 6.0.2 can handle the files and Premiere and Avid support are on the way. 15 years from now I'll probably be able to play those files burned on an optical disk. That should be a lot easier than hunting for a compatible working HDV deck 15 years from now.

The reason I'm not a fan of HDV goes beyond the codec. It's the lack of tape deck compatibility. At least Sony is changing that with CF cards on the new Z7 and Z270. When Canon and JVC follow suit (and they will have to inevitably), the deck issues will go away.

Jules, you may well need the M35 to take full advantage of your Canon HDV camera or you can use the camera as a deck.

Jude Cotter Wrote:
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> >>And since Canon doesn't manufacture an HDV deck
> I'm guessing that the Canon HDV tapes work fine in
> the Sony Decks. <<
>
> As far as I know Canon and Sony are compatible,
> but JVC is not. So there are essentially two kinds
> of HDV - HDV1 and HDV2. I suppose if you got any
> JVC in you'd have to rent a deck, or not let the
> camera go until you had captured all the clips.

Hey - I'm with you. HDV is the first format to be incompatible with itself. A stupid idea, I reckon.

But those numbers are still very cheap - compare that to even the old SD SP beta decks, what were they, couple hundred thousand new? They still rent for $350 a day here. Ten days on that and you've nearly bought the M35 outright.

I don't know if BetaSP decks ever were that expensive (depending on model). I think I remember DigiBeta record decks being close to $100,000 when they first came out.

I post house might be justified in buying both M35 and BR-50. Keep in mind the M35 is VERY NEW and before that I don't know of any deck that played Canon 24F/30F. The problem is that many HDV projects are low budget so you really have to have the volume of business to warrant paying off those decks and making a profit.

Given the Canon A1 is $3400 and M35 is $4500 for a total of $7900, you can buy a Sony EX1 XDCAM for $6700 and not "curse" anyone by handing over an HDV 24F tape to a client or having to buy a deck to keep from tethering your camera. Add a MacBookPro $2000 to your EX1 and for $8700 you can record in the field and burn DL-DVD for clients and/or backup. That dump to laptop and burn to disc can still be faster than real time. That laptop for $2000 can server many more purposes than a deck too. Client screening and rough cuts in the field for example.

The economics and compatibility issue of HDV tape make less and less sense these days. Sony got it by going to CF card even for HDV. The whole tape/deck issue is a nightmare and once all one has to do is install a codec to input a file, manufacturers will be free to improve things and distribute codecs and we'll have more formats we can shake an oxide particle at (ugh!). Well Sony's got a handle on that too given the EX1 XDCAM uses mp4 wrapper, not mxf, records 1920x1080, not 1440x1080 . . . but I didn't have to buy a deck for that . . . it was a FREE FCP download!

Bringing this all back to Jules questions about a deck. Maybe best thing for Jules to do is buy a hard drive recorder (Firestore) for less than the price of the M35.

Why don't you contact Canon Support for a deck list?

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.