FCP editors and After Effects

Greetings, I work solely as an offline/online editor and work with two After Effects artists and thus have a basic understanding of how AE works though I am not by any stretch a trained graphic artist. I wish I was and have done so for years - I love motion GFX and feel that running After Effects is the one point where I lack. In London companies expect you to be an all singing all dancing type but learning After Effects is no easy matter - aside from the application there are plug ins etc...I am looking for advice and opinions on how essential it is for pro editors to be able to handle AE. I recall Graffix Joe saying it is not a great idea to do both as you are stretched when taking on both roles and yet in many circles it's expected of you. I almost resent that fact. I feel preasured. What do you think? Is it too much? Is it the norm to be both editor and graphic designer? I don't know any editors this side of the pond who do both duties...all comments welcome. Thanks Phil UK

Hey Phil,

I absolutely never said you should not do both. On the contrary...I have mentioned a few million times over the years on this forum that in my market, having AE in your tool set keeps the jobs coming and opens you up to opportunities that a straight editor does not have.

It is NOT the norm to know both... which is why knowing AE makes it so appealing to Studio Managers when you do

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Hey Joe, Cool...I must have obfuscated your earlier comments. I guess it's time for me to hit the manuals, I've been putting it off for ages, so much so that I have an After Effects mental block to overcome..What with all those motion paths, key frames, trap code etc and yet I feel that AE is like an old friend with whom I need to get to know better. Getting AE tuition in this country is not easy.

Go for it Phil.

I do both as well as many other apps to increase my portability in all the media and areas I work.

Tuition in the UK is a bit on the rare side I think, but honestly there are so many excellent and easy to read books and 1000s of step-by-step articles and videos on creative cow and similar sites for free that learning AE is in many ways more accessible than FCP.

Start here: [www.videocopilot.net]

Then bookmark, search and read through these:

[www.creativecow.net]

[aftereffects.digitalmedianet.com]

[www.adobe.com]

[www.stephenschleicher.com]



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Cheers Ben.

Yep...you simply must GO FOR IT. I hate reading. I never learned from books, my friend...I learned by doing. Tutorials are the way to learn a visual program, IMHO. Here are some of my favorite sites for you:

[www.videocopilot.net]

[www.ayatoweb.com]

[www.creativecow.net]

[www.graymachine.com]

[wikivid.com]

[toolfarm.com]

There's more, but that should be enough to fry your noodle for a few months. Don't be afraid of it... if you get stuck, come on in and post away with a big "OT:" at the start. There's nothing like the feeling when you can't figure something out, someone points you in the right direction and the "lightbulb goes on" in your head...and you get it. When that starts happening on your own, you have arrived. We are here to help you.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Here are two additional sites for training resources:

Total Training - [www.totaltraining.com]

Although these tutorials are a bit pricier than most they are very well done. Not only do they do a great job of teaching the application but they also provide some good design techniques for editors. After only about three weeks to go through the 18 hours or so of tutorials I was able to use AE on paying gigs. It didn't take months.

[www.lynda.com]

This is a great website for online tutorials. There's a couple of things I really like about Lynda.com, you can sign up on a $20 month-to-month, drop it when you don't need it and pick it up where you left off when you do. But what I've found is that they have so many great programs for all the Apple. Adobe, Avid and many others I use it all the time. This is truly a great resource for training.

Also, one thing I noticed was that Total Training now offers online training, they didn't offer that when I purchased the training for AE. Although I'd have a really hard time switching from Lynda.com.

Hope this helps

Always great to chat widja all....thank you. No time like the now.

Haha. Great that we're on this discussion. As an editor with a working knowledge and application of sound editing, I'm also considering picking up AE real soon. Although I don't think it is the norm, I am somehow seeing an increasing number of ads up for editors with a working knowledge of AE. That is also not to mention that the face of non linear editing is rapidly changing. I guess it's time to hop on the bandwagon for me too! Let's rock!

I've found that knowing AE has been a *huge* advantage... it's a great way to separate yourself from "the pack".

Some folks learn well from books - I think Chris and Trish Meyers' AE books are great. Very well written, beautifully laid out, and chock full of all kinds of extras...

Creative Cow seems to have *tons* of tutorials... these are nice, "bite-sized" learning opportunities...

But, ultimately, it's really just about putting in the hours, pounding your head against stuff you don't grasp at first, etc....

Good luck!

i cant imagine being a "video guy" and NOT knowing after effects. to me its like being a carpenter and not knowing screwdrivers - its just another tool.

i learned after effects on the fly WAY back before adobe bought it. (anybody here remember "cosa after effects"?) the version i had was a beta release and there was no manual and definitely no tutorials.

reason i bring this up is that of all the apps i use, after effects was by far the easiest to learn! i dont know of any app that is more intuitive or easy to use. it gets a tad harder the deeper you get into it but even then. it all makes sooooo much sense.

[yet in many circles it's expected of you. I almost resent that fact. I feel preasured. What do you think?]

It's expected of you by lazy or budget-restrcted (aka CHEAP) producers who don't want to or cannot hire a specialist. That's reality. So like everyone says, go for it. But negotiate a higher than usual fee. You'll have to feel your way into that carefully but it's quite justified. You may also have to prove your worth first.

I learned AE 4.1 from Adobe's own Classroom in a Book years ago, which until Peachpit's Pro Series books came along was the established paradigm for self-paced learning. Also a bit from Brian Maffit's Total Training tapes. A good follow-up Adobe Press entry, (through Peachpit), is Mark Christiansen's After Effects Studio Techniques books. The Meyers' DV Expert Series books are also quite good, but more cluttered with info (and layout), appropriate later in your tutorial.

None of these books are cheap, easily US$50 a throw, but check here at the Store, or on Amazon for used copies.

There is no finish line. You gotta keep your skillset current and expanding. We've been led into "vertical editing" kicking and screaming and grousing, but bottom line, it's part of the craft, more so on some assignments than others. I'm moving through FC Studio 2 apps now; some are very rich. I'm tackllng DVDStudio Pro at this moment, using the Peachpit Pro Training Series book by Sitter, Ramseier and Schofield, and it's very well designed.

You can do it. Allot quiet time and breaks for Jinni Zeala, Alchemy, Bejeweled, et al.

- Loren
Today's FCP keytip:
Instantly find Next/Previous timeline Gaps with Shift/Option -G !

Final Cut Studio 2 KeyGuide? Power Pack.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

"It's expected of you by lazy or budget-restrcted (aka CHEAP) producers who don't want to or cannot hire a specialist. That's reality."

Loren,

I don't think it's all budget driven these days. I'm finding the line between "editing" and "visualiztion" constantly getting blurred. So, as a producer, I'm more inclined to go with someone who can THINK in both camps. It has nothing to do with money. I want an all encompassing approach from the start. If I have to pay more for it, so be it, but sometimes, I want a "two trick pony".

Mark

You got it, Mark. That's not reality, Loren...that's big market thinking where everybody specializes and Unions are king. If you specialize where I live & work...you starve. Miniscule Union presence here. The editor that can cut for After Effects treatments is more valuable to Producers these days by far (in my market, anyway). It's a different way of thinking for sure. Sometimes it's easier for myself to cut & treat the entire piece directly in AE and I just use FCP for digitizing & output. It DOES command a higher rate, though (almost double that of a straight cutter). And it's not just After Effects...today's editor should also know Photoshop & Illustrator like the back of their hand and a big bonus is a 3D app (Maya &/or Cinema 4D).

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Me again on British time...I gotta say thanks for the encouragement and reasoning, I am truly grateful. It's great to to hear from others on matters as serious as expanding your technical and creative scope which is what this is all about. I work as I said with two AE designers..I cut, online and master and know what this app can do. I love after effects, the whole concept of it and have been told of how quick one can pick the basics, I learned cutting film on Stienbecks and super 8 and am not the sharpest tool in the shed on software so I've made it difficult for myself.

Took pick up on something grafixjoe said, where you work and who your clients are will dictated more or less what you need to know. "Smaller" jobs might require wearing more than one hat because that's the nature of that beast. But "larger" jobs might want a one trick pony because they can afford to hire an entire stable (so to speak).

As w/many things in this field, the correct answer is what works best for you in your situation.


-A

"But "larger" jobs might want a one trick pony because they can afford to hire an entire stable (so to speak). "

I think you missed my point. We are in a large market, we can afford the whole frickin' stable, and yet, sometimes, I still want the multi trick "show pony", not the plow horse.

Not to beat this dead horse to death, but I would contend that an editor who knows AE well is going to bring a different approach to solving the puzzle compared to someone who only know how to "cut". Unions, rates, and geography have little to do with it.

Mark

I'd have to agree with Mark on this one. An Editor who can think vertically as well as linearly will come up with different ways of putting the pieces together. Just like a doco Cameraman will bring a different eye to a drama shoot, or a short film Director will push the boundaries of Current Affairs.

Also, probably someone who has lived in a mud hut in Somalia for an extended period would have different ideas to bring to the table. The point is, the more you know, the more you learn, the more flexible and useful you become. IMHO.

If it interests you, definitely do it. If it doesn't interest you, learn something else that does.

Mark,

I didn't miss you point. You used "sometimes" and I used "might". We both know that both the One Trick Pony and the Multi Trick Pony have their uses which means someone can be a successful Pony of either type. They just have to be the right horse in the right race. I know editors that get consistent work because they are fast, rock solid story tellers and I know editors that get consistent work because they can provide a slick, visual punch to their projects.

I was just saying that there is no one size fits all answer. It depends on the individual's situation.

I certainly agree w/Jude in that if something looks fun, interesting, and/or useful go out and learn it.
Unless we're talking about state secrets I don't thinking knowing "too much" has ever hurt anyone.


-A

> Unless we're talking about state secrets I don't thinking knowing "too much" has ever hurt
> anyone.

It's ironic; this is one field where "knowing too much" could hurt you, in certain cases. I've met editors who are far more knowledgeable After Effects whizzes than I am...but then they spend two hours trying to perfect a lighting effect, and it turns out the section they're editing wasn't even ready to begin with. Effects work can be so seductive that some people's FX skills take over their editing, and when it comes to editing works of substance that can't sustain lots of effects (eg. a somber social documentary, or an intimate drama), they freeze up or overdo it.

Good FX artists, of course, always start with what the story/end goal demands and their work is well motivated. All I'm saying is that sometimes some people let their toolbox dictate their work, rather than letting their work dictate what tools they need. I wouldn't recommend that a new editor learn effects as soon as possible; I'd say get some experience using the most basic tools first. Cuts, judicious dissolves and structure will never fall out of style, where as Wind Blur Cross probably will.


www.derekmok.com

haha. sweet.

Hmm... a one trick pony? Big industry? Walter Murch himself wasn't exactly solely an editor. He had an illustrious career as a sound editor in films like Apocalypse Now and the Rain People before an illustrious career as a picture editor, occasionally working in both fields. Not sure if he also knows AE. Perhaps someone can ask him

Well, I do both quite a bit and have been in the exact position of working on graphics during the edit and then having the edit fall behind schedule. The trick is to separate the two tasks. Edit first and hold graphics off till the cut has progressed sufficiently.

I have a graphics setup at home and usually tell the director or producer that I will work on the graphics at home. That keeps the edit time clean.

> Edit first and hold graphics off till the cut has progressed sufficiently.

Sshot selection is the most important. One assistant editor took a stab at editing a promo for a show I cut, and he didn't even have all the extracts, soundbites or even a structure. But he started putting in superimposed text, lightning and photo flashes, and speed cutting. Can't cook unless you have the food already; it's like he was trying to put together a meal using only pepper, garlic and beetle powder. And in watching it, you don't get any sense of what the content of the show is; all you see are weakly motivated techniques which look cliched because there's no substance or stylistic cohesion to support them. I just scrapped everything he did and did a whole new one with only cuts.


www.derekmok.com

Sounds like the assistant editor was looking to move up the food chain.

> Sounds like the assistant editor was looking to move up the food chain.

Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with taking a stab at editing projects, either. I did blame him for a) leaving the drive FAT32-formatted and b) capturing 10 hours of footage as "Untitled"!


www.derekmok.com

The good After Effects artist I know came out of graphic design as in old school magazine stuff...I did a degree in film. I agree with Derek...this will become intergral because as I may have said before, production managers, clients whatever have not the foggiest idea of what goes into making a broadcast quality 30 second commercial.