export without render? good idead or bad?

Hi -
so i finished a 2 minute video and before I rendered it I went ahead and exported a .wmv file. to my surprise, when I watched it (in QT not FCP) it had the blue unrendered parts where it needed to be rendered.
correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't fcp render the timeline before exporting it?
or at least that's how it used to be.

Alexedit
FCP6.0

Does this happen if you render first and then export?

I've personally never found any advantage to skipping the manual rendering operation. It's not any faster if you just do the export (it'll have to render anyway), and in fact can be less reliable, as you're seeing here.


www.derekmok.com

I think if you didn't render AND didn't ask for "Self Contained" you will be out of luck. FCP can't conjure those rendered areas out of thin air. You'll get the blue placeholder. If you export as a reference movie, make sure FCP has render files to... well, reference!

OR

Check "Make movie self-contained" in the Export dialog. Takes longer but does (or *should do*) the crunching of the required render areas. In this method, you can skip rendering.

I always render, i want to see it at highest quality first.

- Loren
Today's FCP keytip:
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FCP *Should* render as part of the export.

i've never seen it give you the Blue placeholder on export.
(on an unrendered play-out to tape, you'll get it of course)

but you say you exported a wmv file?
fcp doesn't do that natively, (you must have flp4mac or similar?)
i guess the rules are different for that.


nick

> You'll get the blue placeholder.

I've never seen it either- reference or self-contained. Final Cut performs an automatic render of the timeline. But as Derek mentioned, and I will stress this point, it is always more reliable to perform a manual render, that, as well as faster exports should you decide to make changes to a sequence and cancel your initial export.

You can't (shouldn't be able to) export without rendering. I always manually render the entire timeline before exporting anyway. You may have stumbled on a bug.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

to be clear on this
you CAN export without rendering.
try it!

and to be clear on what i said abut play-outs,
i was talking about a "creash record" playout direct from the timteline.
Print to Video, or Edit to Tape do a temporary render prior to allowing the sequence play out


in Arod's case, the prolem is ether due to exporting as wmv,
(this could be a bug as Joe points out, or a limitation of flip4mac)
OR
the preferences need to be trashed


a render after all IS an export.
you are making a new file that FCP references in the timeline.

also, i'll bet a lot of people ARE rendering when they export without knowing it!

a lot of people would be leaving their Sequence Menu render settings at the default.
this means the "Full" render quality effects (blue-grey line) are NOT being rendered when they chose to render.
but all those same effects will be "rendered" as part of an export.

one reason i prefer to to be fully rendered before an export is i can more accurately estimate the time the export will take.

time wise, it'll actually take a little longer to render then export.
but the time saving comes if you need to export a second time.
(you realise the copyright card has the wrong date or some such thing)


MOST times you'd want to render before export,
but if you had a bunch of clips you were processing in FCP somehow,
(adding a watermark for instance, and yes, i know this can be done in compressor)
then there's be no gain to rendering all first, then exporting all.


nick

> but if you had a bunch of clips you were processing in FCP somehow,
> (adding a watermark for instance, and yes, i know this can be done in compressor)
> then there's be no gain to rendering all first, then exporting all.

I'd argue strongly that there is -- the control you gain over the render files. As you yourself mentioned, rendering first means you won't have to render again until you make a change, and even then, the rendered portions not covered by the changes remain rendered. Export without manually rendering first, and you end up rendering the whole thing every single time. Let's not forget that with manual rendering, you can stop it every five, 10, 20 minutes and save the project file to preserve the rendering progress up to that point. Can't do that with an export -- if you crash or cancel midway through, you have nothing.

Always render first. I agree with Nick that it's not absolutely necessary, but the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks.


www.derekmok.com

but you're talking about edited sequences again!
not batch processing.


but here's a question for you:
how can i get AutoRender to render "Full" quality effects?
i dont think it's possible.

nm

> but you're talking about edited sequences again!
> not batch processing.

Oh, you're talking about Batch Export.
If you're talking about a single change such as Broadcast Safe in Browser clips, or a watermark, then I suppose it's a lot faster not having to deal with timelines. Especially if you're talking about, say, 1000 clips that require the same change.

But I might suggest that such an export is much less frequent than exporting an edited sequence. That's what FCP is for.

At any rate, our goal is to offer views from various perspectives so that people can choose their method intelligently. Disagreements are healthy.


www.derekmok.com

Well, nick...I don't know about you, but everytime I export something - it renders it first. It has always been that way for me. I don't know why anyone would want to change that anyway. I kinda don't need the "UNRENDERED" blue screen in my projects anyway (???). I like to see my timeline rendered fully and play it out to QC it before export.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

well it renders it as it's exporting.
(or renders before a Print to Video or Edit to Tape)
but i think we're talking about the same thing, & i misunderstood your previous post.

i never see the "unrendered" screen because i always work in Unlimited RT
if something is too complex to playback smoothly, i'll render it then and there,
otherwise it'll be auto-rendered at some stage,
or rendered just before export.

yes, i too do that!
im just saying you don't necessarily HAVE to do it.

i think the pros and cons have been pretty much exhausted by now.


cheers,
nick

I've also seen the unrendered screen in a Flip4Mac wmv export, never with any other types of export so it does seem like a bug.

Martin Baker
[www.digital-heaven.co.uk]
Unique plug-ins and tools for Apple Pro Apps

guys, guys guys..... if your project is edited and all you're doing is making a small change, and that small change throws makes you re-render part of your timeline: why would I have to render again? - it's a waste of time, if I already know what it looks like.

Yes I am using FlipForMac - so digitalheaven is correct, I think this is a bug.

and YES you can export without rendering (maybe not with flip for mac)
what I've found is that a lot of people assume that they HAVE to render before exporting, but like someone said above....exporting is rendering.

there's always a positive and a negative:
the negative: your render breaks will now be shorter..
the positive your render times will now be shorter :-)

Exporting is *not* rendering-- unless I'm missing a new Preference setting!

In 5.1.4 FCP will certainly render a Timeline from File>Export>QuickTime Movie with "Make Movie Self-Contained" checked. It will *not* automatically render during Export>QT when you uncheck this-- you are at the mercy of whatever files are available to be collected for playback by the reference QT file. I have seat time in this condition. If you haven't pre-rendered areas requiring it ahead of time, there are no render files to be referenced. You may get the blue "unrendered" screen or the red "media offline" screen. I've seen both on occasion.

The moral is, render everything full quality ahead of time before File>Export, or simply check "Make Movie Self-Contained!" That usually crunches everything, much like Print to Video-- but not volatile.

- Loren
Today's FCP keytip:

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Window menu>Arrange>and select Set Custom Layout 1 or 2 !

Then use Custom Layout 1 or 2 with Shift-U or Option-U !

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As Loren said "Make Movie Self-Contained"

Does it all - however if you have a crash or run out of disk space on the target disk on export you will have to wait the time over again.


Basically if you want to save space from render files export directly to a self contained movie.

The is one important caveat that you MUST adhere to...

Render particularly complex FX/Filter combinations first as these can often come out with odd artifacts or render errors when used in the wrong order.

I had an example the other day using a vignette in multiply mode with several third party filters and a blend fields filter.

Whilst the preview looked great the render went dark and missed the vignette - reordering the FX layers and it worked fine.

However if you are getting issues on F4M then just do the render and kick back and watch the line with a nice mochachocalattecinnamonswirlylovemug...

Or export a Self-Contained Movie and export from QTPro or Compressor using F4M.

I rarely export directly from FCP with conversion as it has always held me up. Export a SCM and compress in another app and you can continue to edit on FCP...



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Quote
Loren
"Make Movie Self-Contained" checked. It will *not* automatically render during Export>QT when you uncheck this-- you are at the mercy of whatever files are available to be collected for playback by the reference QT file.

my experience is that if you un-tick "make self contained" then the un-rendered sections will be "processed" (trying to avoid the R word here) and INCLUDED in the QTMovie as media.

in fact i just verified this.
exported a small section of a red render bar effect as a reference movie.
the file is bigger than a true ref movie would be (it contains media),
and also, i can move it to another system,
and still open it (it contains media)

you wouldnt WANT to do this, it's a bit pointless.

Quote
Ben
I rarely export directly from FCP with conversion as it has always held me up. Export a SCM and compress in another app and you can continue to edit on FCP...

words of wisdom!
compared to which my arguments are mere counting the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.


nick

[my experience is that if you un-tick "make self contained" then the un-rendered sections will be "processed" (trying to avoid the R word here) and INCLUDED in the QTMovie as media.

in fact i just verified this. ]

Thank you, Nick. That feels like a significant behavior change to me. I've always known reference movies to be just that.

[you wouldnt WANT to do this, it's a bit pointless. ]

How so? If it really renders unrendered material in a playable reference movie, and does so reliably and at full rez, that would be damn handy. Of course, since you've confirmed it, it's not a reference movie anymore-- it's a Toyota Prius.

- Loren
Today's FCP keytip:

Set your customized window layout 1 or 2 by holding Option then click
Window menu>Arrange>and select Set Custom Layout 1 or 2 !

Then use Custom Layout 1 or 2 with Shift-U or Option-U !

Final Cut Studio 2 KeyGuide? Power Pack.
Now available at KeyGuide Central.
www.neotrondesign.com

>my experience is that if you un-tick "make self contained" then the un-rendered sections will be
>"processed" (trying to avoid the R word here) and INCLUDED in the QTMovie as media.

Not rendering automatically, if i recall, COULD have been around on 4.5, but as far as I can recall from version 5 onwards, it always forces a render upon export. If you have manually rendered the timeline, exporting times are a lot shorter because it now gathers its frame from the rendered and source footage without having to render again.

Of course, my practice is always to trash render files from the sequence before exporting/ETT on the final output, as Final Cut does sometimes make mistakes on the position of the render files, causing some shots to stutter.

Exporting via QT conversion is not recommended, as the pictures aren't as clean as exporting via Compressor or a direct QT movie export. When going between formats, I almost always go through Compressor (you get options to crop, resize to square pixels, deinterlace), and it renders straight from the timeline. Either that, or i'd export a SCQT and throw that into another application if I'm in a hurry. QT conversion doesn't do a better job than either of these workflow.

>>the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. <<

It's eight. All the others just stand on the edges drinking punch and feeling awkward.

And i thought 7 was an angelic number...

Sure but that means one angel is dancing by him or herself, in that creepy, acid-tripper kind of way. Angels aren't like that. They prefer Bicardi.

That's my understanding too. Any clips that have filters/speed/motion tab changes on them get rendered and the media embedded inside the exported movie. Only "raw" unchanged clips are referenced to the original media.

Martin Baker
[www.digital-heaven.co.uk]
Unique plug-ins and tools for Apple Pro Apps