OT - Moderators and anyone else using PHOTOSHOP in their Post Production - Proposition???

Hello FCPUG community.

A big thanks to everyone who helped me get through the edit of my first feature last year. Life savers, all of you! (www.coldplaythemovie.com)

Besides being a writer/director/editor I'm also a Photoshop guy - I've contributed work to the PS Wow! Books, Scott Kelby's Books, I teach for Popular Photography, NAPP, Photoshop World and online stuff too. (www.photoshopbasics101.com)

I'm looking for creative filmmakers who would be interested in contributing to a book I'm writing (peachpit press is currently set to distribute) called, "PHOTOSHOP for the Independent Filmmaker"

Basically it's a recipe book of todays hottest indy filmmakers and how they use Photoshop for their post production work flow.

If you're interested in having some of your work published I NEED TO HEAR FROM YOU.

I need 10 or 15 minutes on the phone with you so you can tell me what challenge you faced in post and how you used PHOTOSHOP to creatively solve the problem.

I'd like to get BEFORE and AFTER clips of your work so the reader can watch the final result - and be amazed. (These clips would ship on a companion CD ROM. 320x240 QT files, most likely).

If you had screen shots of your steps that would be great, but I can recreate them if need be for the book.

THERE IS SOME PAY if your work goes into the book. But primarily this would be exposure for you as a filmmaker, editor, production company and expert in the field of indy filmmaking.

I'll be using several projects from my own films but I really want to hear from others who are doing mind bending work as well. Particularly if it's practical information for the filmmakers out there who just need some solid creative inspiration.

If you have samples I'd love to see them. PLEASE CONTACT ME.

Here are some topics (for example) I'd like to address but this is based on how I'VE had to use Photoshop for post. Your solutions will add to the depth of the book.

Rotoscoping, Rack Focus with Greenscreen tips, Color Correction, Fake Gun Shots, Blood Gags, False Exteriors, False lighting, Sci Fi Effects, Smoke Effects, Day for Night, 3D Animating, ANYTHING you've used Photoshop for to add production value to the project or save money would be what I'm looking for.

Out-of-the-box, Robert Rodriguez meets David Blain kind of PHOTOSHOP work for video. It's that kind of book.

If you've got something like that, I'd love to have you in the book. PLEASE contact me so we can chat.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR INTEREST - of course if you need to see samples of what I'm talking about I would gladly send along projects I've done so you have a ballpark idea of what's involved.

Thank you, Michael!

Geno

geno@genoandrews.com

Before anyone deletes this I gave permission to Geno to post this on the Cafe.



Michael Horton
-------------------

dunno if it applies, but i use Photoshop to rotoscope on restoring old movies.
I even wrote a special application to get in and out Photoshop FAST

What i do is have my application run next to Photoshop, and without leaving photoshop, i can control the Quicktime, get frames (with previous or next frame in other layers) in Photoshop, correct them and place the corrected frames back into the quicktime with a single keystroke.
A demo (although PC only, and you need some time to set it up) can be found on my site.

Bouke
www.videotoolshed.com

Bouke
www.videotoolshed.com

Geno, almost all the stuff you mention is more easily done in After Effects. Photoshop is useful, but not as much as it used to be.

However, Photoshop and After Effects seem to be converging with the release of CS3, especially now that you can create video with Photoshop. It seems to me that a lot of older PS techniques have totally different workflows in CS3, so I would definitely look to not only introduce techniques, but update them considering the new tools.

For example, there is a technique with FCP and PS I teach in my book about FCP FX, but with the new video timeline in PS I am sure there is a new way to do it. I just haven't figured it out yet. I tried, but the old way seemed to be much faster.

Best of luck.

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead, DV Products
Adobe
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe After Effects and Premiere Pro Community Blog
Follow Me on Twitter!

Great comments guys.

Bouke - could be very interesting to see your project. Will DEFINITELY comb through your site. Thank you.

Kevin - you're absolutely right. But there's a huge group of filmmakers out there who can't afford AE and certainly aren't up for the learning curve. But they've been fiddling in PS for years and are probably more comfortable with the move to CS3 as a tool then AE. They just need a little inspiration and some out of the box explanation on how it can help them with their DV footage.

I have both, PS and AE and I used PS for 90% of the special effects in my film. And you're right, UPDATING the techniques I think is a huge part of this book.

Thanks for everything and pass the word on to other guys doing some cool stuff in PS for DV.

Oh, and one other thing, if you have techniques that you've done in AE that could now be done in CS3(4)'s new timeline (which is sooooo similar to AE) those kinds of projects could be great for the book as well. I'd just translate your genius into the PS workflow.

Cheers, and don't forget to call your moms! And if they smoke at Photoshop give'm my number.

g-

Bouke,

I checked out the app. I'm not sure if I understand it.

You've basically written an app to pull a specific about of frames from a QT movie, drop them into PS timeline, you do your effects, then without having to EXPORT as a new "Retouched/rotoscoped movie you replace the old frames in the QT and then can open that in FCP?

Does it write over the original frames?

Is it basically a way to speed up this workflow.

1) Export 3 seconds of video from FCP as a new movie file.
2) Import into PS and do your effects.
3) Export as NEW video movie.
4) Reimport this new EFFECTED movie into FCP
5) Then replace the old 3 second section with this new movie?

Is that it or am I missing something?

Sounds interesting.

g-

Quote

Kevin - you're absolutely right. But there's a huge group of filmmakers out there who can't afford AE and certainly aren't up for the learning curve. But they've been fiddling in PS for years and are probably more comfortable with the move to CS3 as a tool then AE. They just need a little inspiration and some out of the box explanation on how it can help them with their DV footage.

Out where? After Effects CS3 Professional is the exact same price as Photoshop CS3 Extended (the version you should be using as a film maker) @ $999

I am on the After Effects bus, Geno... I totally disagree with Photoshop as a MAIN film making tool. Posting with PS is the hard way for film making - After Effects is a POWER TOOL for film makers. I don't know anyone using PS over AE for their projects so I can't help you there.

Quote

Rotoscoping, Rack Focus with Greenscreen tips, Color Correction, Fake Gun Shots, Blood Gags, False Exteriors, False lighting, Sci Fi Effects, Smoke Effects, Day for Night, 3D Animating

AE eats this stuff for breakfast. Try greenscreening a 15 second scene in Photoshop or cleanly removing a microphone / boom / crane arm or a harness in Photoshop or actually racking focus in Photoshop. It can be done, but it's a ton of labor. AE is a JOY to use - especially with visual FX and with some state-of-the-art plug-ins (Trapcode Suite / Magic Bullet Suite / Tinderbundle), you can make DV look like a million bucks.

Your book should be about using After Effects in film making...not Photoshop. I'd contribute to that - bigtime

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Geno Andrews Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You've basically written an app to pull a specific
> about of frames from a QT movie, drop them into PS
> timeline, you do your effects, then without having
> to EXPORT as a new "Retouched/rotoscoped movie you
> replace the old frames in the QT and then can open
> that in FCP?

Dunno what you mean by a PS timeline. The app pulls a frame out of the QT, and opens it in Photsoshop as a layered file (with timecode as filename to be future proof).
When you're done working on it, you can send it back into the QT.

> Does it write over the original frames?
Nope. (Although it could, but that would be destructive) It creates a second QT track and puts the frames there (the original can be a ref file, the corrected frames are inserted WITH data to be on the safe side, but i could alter that)

> Is it basically a way to speed up this workflow.
Yes of course. Exporting a frame out of your NLE and open it in Photoshop, save, reimport and edit in takes ages. Besides, for my job i need to be able to see frames in context of other frames to distinguish birds from dust etc...

> 1) Export 3 seconds of video from FCP as a new
> movie file.
> 2) Import into PS and do your effects.
> 3) Export as NEW video movie.
> 4) Reimport this new EFFECTED movie into FCP
> 5) Then replace the old 3 second section with this
> new movie?
>
> Is that it or am I missing something?

You're definitly missing something. You're thinking of the Photoshop video import that was introduced in the latest version. This app takes QT's as long as you like. (We use chuncks of about 3 minutes)

I don't know if FCP is able to play back the files without a render (i doubt it, but i have not tried). That is not the timesaver. It's just that we can do a simple correction on a frame in just a few seconds, INCLUDING the opening/saving, WITHOUT leaving Photoshop.
JKL trough the video, one keystroke to put the frame into Photoshop, one keystroke to save it as a PSD with TC as name, AND paste the corrected frame in the QT.
This way it is not uncommon for us to roto a couple of thousand frames on one movie.

> Sounds interesting.

Sure is :-)

Bouke
www.videotoolshed.com

RotoPaint ? I miss Commotion, this was the most elegant way working with any of the apps.
I haven't found the time to dive into silhouettefx.com but that's definitively an option.

But for my part I use PhotoShop for batch creating subtitles, it's a great tool for this and it's way better as Boris regarding the workflow - quality is at at least the same, options for subtitles are the same, for titles it might be less.
The things you need:
obviously PhotoShop (with a version above 5)
PhotoShop Scripting installed
and finally some knowledge about any of the scripting languages PhotoShop supports.

The real cool thing with that is, that you can save the PS file as layered TIFF. This will show up in FCP a normal graphics file with full alpha (and effect) support. But using opt-return it will open in PS with all layers intact including the layer effects and editable text (really not rendered like with the beloved PNGs, JPEGs, standard TIFFs etc.).
The other cool thing is that you can do the same for DVDSP too - you want to change a graphics subtitle? Just open open it in PS and change the text, save and update the DVDSP project - no need to create the title from scratch and save (as) like with the beloved PNGs, JPEGs, standard TIFFs etc.
You can even use a PS action to change all your titles and still keep the PS structure intact.

My 2 cents
Andreas

If I recall. A layered TIFF can also run in RT with an alpha channel, unlike a .PSD. That used to be so anyway, I haven't tried it lately.

Kevin Monahan
Social Support Lead, DV Products
Adobe
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe After Effects and Premiere Pro Community Blog
Follow Me on Twitter!

Quote

If I recall. A layered TIFF can also run in RT with an alpha channel, unlike a .PSD.

That's correct, but the main thing is that the layers still stay intact.
I posted a rough about layered TIFF quite some time ago
[www.spherico.com]

Andreas

That's more good stuff.

The subtitle thing could be very cool for the book (that is the topic I'll always drive back to.) Andreas, how practical is this if you DON'T know much about scripting? I don't know a thing about it (though I should) so I'm trying to make this practical for people who use Photoshop in the graphic sense. Do you have a link to how this subtitle technique works?

I've never done subtitles on any of my films so I'm not sure what this technique does over another technique - where can I find out more about this. It could be another good chapter for the book as long as it focuses primarily on PS and not Scripting.

Thanks.

g-

PS - I'd love to know more about why PSD files don't support alpha channels but TIFFS do. AND, if someone can tell me, why is it from LIVE TYPE, I can render an effect with a black background and bring it into FCP and the BG is transparent.

When I bring the clip into PS the black is rendered as BLACK. Is there a way that you know of that will allow me to open in PS and preserve the transparency of the BG? THAT WOULD BE SO GOOD TO KNOW.

Can't argue too heavy with you there, Joey - After Effects is an amazing tool. And as far as PS as a MAIN tool... that's negotiable depending on the challenge. PS is certainly a more versatile tool. Print, Video, Web, etc.

Huge advances are coming with CS4, and it's the tool I'm qualified to teach.

Not many people I know are using AE without going through PS in some way first.

Why not use the timeline, keyframes, layer styles, adjustment layers, all the paint tools, type, etc., right there in PS?

I even have AE 6.5 but (I'm an AE novice) and after poking around in there I just went back to PS and got the job done.

It worked great. Certainly AE is the perfect tool for some VERY SPECIFIC work, but in my opinion it comes with a pretty steep learning curve. And when it's all said and done, MOST indy filmmakers need PS for its versatility. When you finish your film, you can't make a One-Sheet in AE. ;-)

I'm not picking a fight. Your point is well taken. I'm obviously a PS guy and CS4 is gonna be that much more of a filmmaker's tool. The publishers are trying to anticipate that market.

So in the meantime, if you know ANY guys willing to share some out the box CONCEPTS for issues they've had in post where PS helped to save the day - would love any contacts.

Thanks brother and thank you for your FCP support in the past. This has been such an incredible resource for me over the years!!!!!

g-

>Not many people I know are using AE without going through PS in some way first.

I barely touch on graphics, but it's an important tool that compliments Final Cut- resizing stills, touching up photos, fonts, etc...

> I'd love to know more about why PSD files don't support alpha channels but TIFFS do

PSD supports alpha channels.. just that it doesn't play in real time.. Layered Tiffs are a more efficient format for RT playback if you're not planning on making changes to the individual layers from FCP itself.



www.strypesinpost.com

Quote

Not many people I know are using AE without going through PS in some way first.

That is true...me included (processing logos / prepping stills / some text treatments / 3D photo manipulation by cutting up an image into layers and animating them in Z-Depth in AE)...but not the way you have mapped out. Rotoscoping? Rack Focus? Color Correction? Greenscreening? No way...anyone using PS for this is not using the right tool and making double work for themselves.

Quote

PS is certainly a more versatile tool. Print, Video, Web, etc.

Yes it is...but your inquiry is about film making (not print & web). Let's stay on topic

I always touch on graphics & FX. I am a Senior Editor / Compositor so I cut pieces and finish them. I could not complete my job without Photoshop...but there is a better more efficient tool for some of the tasks you are inquiring about Geno. Even the big houses use After Effects for those as well as the "Mom & Pop" boutiques. They use PS as well, but in a companion (not primary) capacity. They are inseparable along with Illustrator - the 3 are a family.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

grafixjoe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> anyone using PS for this is not using the right tool and
> making double work for themselves.
>
> PS is certainly a more versatile tool. Print,
> Video, Web, etc.
>
> Yes it is...but your inquiry is about film making
> (not print & web). Let's stay on topic

I am surprised that no one mentioned that a killer book about PS and video has already been written. It's going to be a tall order topping Richard Harrington's "Photoshop For Video". Have you seen it Geno? You should check it out. The book is so useful for the kind of stuff everyone from Joe Six-Pack hobbyist to the pro editor needs to know. It's in its third printing since 2004 as well, quite impressive. Most everyone I know owns this book, even me. In fact, I learned the TIFF with an RT alpha from Richard.

Richard's PS for Video site: [www.photoshopforvideo.com]

Geno, you are going to need to mine territory Richard has not, while staying away from techniques better accomplished in AE. That will be tough, for sure.

Have you written a book before? If not, I have one word of advice for you: persevere.

...not plagerize You may accidentally repeat what has already been printed and that won't sell many books...especially since Richard's book is already so well known in the marketplace.

I also have that book - the Second Edition...and I never cracked it. I am putting it up on ebay. I won it in a raffle at one of Richard's Seminars. L earned enough in the seminar to carry me quite a while. ..didn't need the book.

A new book should have fresh techniques.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

I know Rich from my old Photoshop WOrld days through Scott Kelby.

I don't own his book, but I've been through it. It's great, but it's more of an encyclopedia for DV and Photoshop. Tons of topics that I wouldn't even want to touch.

It's not what I would consider a RECIPE book like the books I've been involved with.

My work has been in many of the Photoshop WOW! Books. (Jack Davis) and Kelby's book Photoshop DREAM TEAM.

It would be NOTHING like Harrington's book. It would probably feel more like the HOW TO WOW books. (Harrington actually did one, HOW TO WOW for POWER POINT.)

I've looked around, I haven't seen anything out there like what I'm hoping to do. It would be my first book and it comes with a few twists of its own.

Remember the story of how Spielberg shot the Los Angeles basin at night, flopped the image and used those lights to create the SPACE SHIP in Close Encounters?

120 pages of those kinds of examples that make you say, "WOW!. So smart. I could have done that with film and saved thousands in production expenses."

I turned a 4 second shot of the exterior of a college into the Buenos Aires Airport.

Using the warp type tool with a layer style and animating a plane landing behind the college. So simple and people freaked. Could have done it in AE. But it was so much easier in PS. The elements were there and so was the timeline.

Our art department wanted 3K and a day to set dress for that shot.

Another shot we gorilla grabbed the front of a hotel we had no permission to use. In PS we painted out the sign, created a flashing neon sign, painted out the traffic, and output this shot directly from PS.

It's not brain surgery. It's actually pretty simple. But no one's put together the book full of INSPIRATIONAL REAL WORLD examples that might save them thousands if they just had someone to show the way.

Many of these examples COULD be done in many different programs. That's not the point. It's getting filmmakers to open their eyes to the possible ways to save them money and add production value using to theri films using simple techniques in photoshop.

In closing, Robert Rodriguez gives unbelievable advice on how to save money in shooting DURING production. His ten minute film school on his DVDs was so inspirational to me. I'm trying to make a book of those kinds of POST EFFECTS using Photoshop, if not to save money for filmmakers, at the very least to inspire them to think outside the box.

Maybe I'm the only one who gets it. But it's the kind of book I'd want to buy as a filmmaker.

Cheers and thanks to anyone who would consider contributing.

g-

Personally I think it's a great idea. Hang on to those guns, Geno.

Sounds good. Good Luck, Geno

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Quote
Geno
Andreas, how practical is this if you DON'T know much about scripting?

Don't know as well, there is some stuff you HAVE to now as the PS font handling/names and the styles.
I do have a free app (somewhere) which allows to create tons of subtitles using PS scripting with Apple Script while having a coffee break. But it also requires to rename your PS app and it does not support timing - I would be stupid to give that out for free - meaning the version with timing.

Regards
Andreas

Some workflow tools for FCP [www.spherico.com]
TitleExchange -- juggle titles within FCS, FCPX and many other apps.
[www.spherico.com]