DVCPro 23.98 layoff to HDCAM

I'm new to FCP and just cut my first projects. Two of the spots are DVCPro 23.98 and two are DVCPro 59.94. The director would like to take them out of house for color correction. The post facility would have to rent a DVC Pro deck and since this job is a favor they were wondering if I could provide them a HDCam with the shots on it. I realize that mixing frame rates on the same tape can create issues to say the least not even sure if that's possible.

Is there any problem laying laying off DVCPro ftg to HDCam?
I have a Sony HD-1800 to layoff to but I'm having trouble with the Kona 3 seeing the deck.
If they could take just the files on a drive that would be ideal but they don't want to get other dept.'s involved.

Help!

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Is there a reason you can't give them a movie file? Or an image sequence?


www.derekmok.com

Yes, because this job is a favor the colorist doesn't want to get other dept.'s involved. It would make it so much easier if he could take the file.....one is 1.5 gb the other is 4gb. I just deconstructed the sequence with handles and removed any filters or grfx.

Do you know of issues with laying off DVCPro ftg to HDCAM?

What's FTG? Hmm... I don't think mixing frame rates on the same tape is possible.. Unless you force a TC break on the tape... But I wont' advice it. Use 2 tapes instead.

How is the deck connected? What are your settings in the Kona control panel?



www.strypesinpost.com

There is no problem going to HDCAM from DVCproHD if you have a Kona 3 - just make sure your output settings are via SDI with RS422 deck control and not via FireWire.

WARNING

HDCAM is lower quality than DVCproHD and you will suffer some degradation in image quality. Not something I would recommend if this is going for finishing!

DVCproHD is 4:2:2 and HDCAM is (effectively) 3:1:1

But if you really want to go this route the if you leave a good minute gap on the tape you could lay down the sequences on 1 tape - just make sure you also give a good 1 minute bars and tone before the sequence and also put all the information on the tape box and tape so that when they ingest the tape they know what format each sequence is!


I second the suggestion of going via Hard Disk - it will give the colorist more to play with!

HDCAM is not high on my list as acceptable formats for colour correction and FX work!



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I've had it with your irresponsible slandering of HDCAM, Ben!

Okay, not really, but if you look at the numbers, you'll find you're mistaken. DVCPRO HD records 1280x1080 with 4:2:2 chroma subsampling, but HDCAM records 1440x1080 with 4:2:2 subsampling. So all other things being equal, you're going to get a slightly sharper picture out of HDCAM.

That said, going from DVCPRO HD to HDCAM and back might not be the best idea in the world. HDCAM SR is a better choice here.

Actually, what's an even BETTER choice would be going out as image sequences. I can understand not wanting to send over a Quicktime, because a DVCPRO HD Quicktime will probably have to be converted to another format to go into most color-grading suites. But the grading system should be able to take a sequence very easily. Do you know what it's going to be graded on? A Davinci, a Lustre, something else?

Sorry to pull you up on this man but

HDCAM is 3:1:1

You may be thinking HDCAM SR which is 4:2:2 or 4:4:4

Seeing as the pixel res is 1280x1080 already - the last thing you want is to reduce the chroma resolution!!!

In the UK/Europe we have DVCproHD at 1440x1080i



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Hm, you may be right. I've always read that "3:1:1" refers to the fact that in order to get the data rate down to something non-insane for its day, HDCAM downsampled the raster to 1440x1080, then did 4:2:2 chroma subsampling on that raster. So both luma and chroma resolution (horizontally) are lower than 1920x1080 at 4:2:2.

But really, that's as gearhead as I ever get, so I could be wrong about a lot of it.

What we do agree on, I think, is that going from one compressed acquisition format to another compressed acquisition format is something to be avoided whenever possible. It's just not always possible.

Let's just all buy SR decks and call it a day, shall we?

Um. Can anybody lend me $110,000? I'll totally get you back next payday.

I will have to check close on the 'spin' that SONY put on their specs as they don't actually put the subsampling details in their specs on HDCAM in any meaningful format - they do however on their HDCAM SR...

If that was the case why not say 1440x1080 sampled at 4:2:2 ???

Its all a bit cloak and dagger for me.

Of course talking cameras/chip/lens quality thats a whole different ball game to just the recording format!

There is a nice article which seems to backup my understanding of the HDCAM subsampling at the cow... [library.creativecow.net]

I'll get to the bottom of this buggers muddle sooner or later but if you have the option DEFINITELY DO NOT go to HDCAM for a colour grade!

HDCAM SR or file transfer unless you can accept a knock in the chroma quality!



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Forgetting HDCAM for now, you cannot output 23.98 to DVCPRO HD. That deck will record only 29.97 and 59.94. So in effect you will not be mixing frame rates...you will not get 23.98 to tape. it will record it as 29.97 or 59.94.

Back to HDCAM. I will confirm that it is 3:1:1, but will say that I output to it all the time (well, I have another company do it, I don't know that deck, and it is complex) and the image quality is fine. One time we had tape to tape color correction with HDCAM, and it was fine. It is an industry standard (like Digibeta) so saying that it is crap compared to DVCPRO HD, while it might be true, doesn't hold up to real world workflows. A lot of people color correct HDCAM tape to tape.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Holy heck. I just looked it up. You can buy a brand-new HDCAM deck for less than a brand-new Digibeta deck. The HDW1800 lists at $32,000. That's less than the AJ-HD1800 Panasonic deck, too.

HDCAM got cheap when I wasn't paying attention.

You could get the Kona to output 23.98 to 29.97 on the HDCAM or DVCproHD deck if you must use it.

But as far as a mastering format its a no-go for HDCAM over here - the BBC and other Broadcasters want a Master delivered on HDCAM SR and certainly no-one should be using 3:1:1 HDCAM for transfers to a colorist!!! Its like saying that because a load of people use HDV for the same purpose doesn't make HDV a better choice or industry standard. The standards are not defined by the amount of people using a particular format, having said that, if they can get away with it they will.

I didn't mean to infer it was crap though Shane - it is however worse to grade than DVCproHD, that extra bit of latitude you get with 4:2:2 is so noticeable when doing any colour or fx work...

...Real-world workflows for myself and many people are beginning to avoid tape until mastering as its not just quality that suffers but that hard disks are so cheap. In fact for the price of an HDCAM tape you can buy an external HDD with more than enough space for a DVCproHD/ProRes/Image Sequence on!

I've done many edits and grades with HDCAM (and DVCproHD to HDCAM) and it is a nice format but it's got its issues like all formats - in this case its not the best option but as I said before - if you can deal with the knock in Chroma then go for it.

I would notice but thats me - I watch pixels for fun... no seriously I do...



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>Forgetting HDCAM for now, you cannot output 23.98 to DVCPRO HD.

Good for pointing that out, Shane. I guess the option is to insert a pulldown going to tape and to remove it when they get it on their end...

Interesting article from the Cow... I should be working on EX-1 footage in the next couple of weeks, and I'm curious to see how the image looks compared to stuff shot on the HVX, and see how that stuff holds up in post.

GOP compression should be better than Intraframe only compression, especially if you're compressing to low bitrates, but GOPs are trickier to work with in post, and will require transcoding.

The other thing to point out in the article, is that DvcproHD 720p is 50 mb/s, and DvcproHD 1080 is 100 mb/s, at least that's the data storage...

32,000 bucks for a HDCAM deck is definitely much lower than the quote I saw a while ago.



www.strypesinpost.com

Quote

I should be working on EX-1 footage in the next couple of weeks

I've dona a fair bit of work using the EX1 and its a much better format that HDV and looks great however it suffers from the PAL DV style colour subsampling of 4:2:0 which is a shame cus overall the full raster 1920x1080 images look sweet.

The camera is good in low light but can suffer from excessive video/compression noise - however it doesn't look that much like video noise and if handled well looks like super-16mm film grain.

The key is to get the footage looking as good as possible on the shoot and not push the grade too much.

I tend to edit in an EX1 native timeline then Media managed to ProRes HQ to grade.

There are other weird compression errors that crop up on over exposed or high luma/chroma gradients that show up in the form of a "borderline" I'll see if I can find a screenshot...



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Strypes, once you output to the deck, then all flags are gone, and trying to recapture and remove pulldown is very difficult.


www.shanerosseditor.com

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EX1 "borderline" compression error...

[loudandfast.co.uk]



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How does EX-1 footage compare to DvcproHD 1080 shot off the HVX200.. Theoretically, it's CMOs vs CCDs, 100mb/s vs 35mb/s, full raster sensors vs pixel shifting, interframe vs intraframe. A lot of variables.. Will be interesting.

I assume the EX-1 will render slightly sharper images, but the HVX may look slightly better on the colors...

>Strypes, once you output to the deck, then all flags are gone, and trying to recapture
>and remove pulldown is very difficult.

Ah... My bad there... Definitely a lot of reading up on pulldowns. Almost don't touch it over here..



www.strypesinpost.com

Hmm.. Ben, does that streak come up even after transcoding to ProRes and grading in ProRes? Or does that happen when you render in XDCAM?



www.strypesinpost.com

Ugh, this is SUCH a sore point for me. There's absolutely no reason why removing pulldown SHOULD be hard. You should be able to just identify your AA frame and go. Whether your grading system can do this or not depends, obviously, on the grading system. I know Lustre can do it.

The whole idea behind 3:2 is that it's totally lossless, since you're just shuffling fields around, and trivially automate-able. It drives me nuts that support for it is not as widespread as it really ought to be.

Sounds like you guys have LOTS of fun in the NTSC world!



www.strypesinpost.com

The downside to the HVX200 is the pixel resolution of the chip and not the DVCproHD format itself...

...the format is fantastic but the HVX200 successor is in need of a chip upgrade!

The SDI 10bit HD output on the EX1 looks fabulous - in fact if you are on a studio set up you could get a Matrox MXO an eSATA RAID and shoot straight to ProRes HQ on a MacBookPro...

...or these:

[www.colorspaceinc.com]

[www.convergent-design.com]



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Quote

Ben, does that streak come up even after transcoding to ProRes and grading in ProRes? Or does that happen when you render in XDCAM?

This is upon encoding to SxS 35Mbps VBR - it didn't show up on the monitor on the shoot but was there on the source material.

I got round this by masking and blurring in the grade but its not something I was happy about considering all the rest looked great.



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>The downside to the HVX200 is the pixel resolution of the chip and not the DVCproHD
>format itself...

Definitely. On the DvcproHD codec, NTSC has it much worse, as the NTSC version has a frame resolution of 1280x1080, as compared to the PAL flavor of 1440x1080. But my only complaints about the HVX is the low light performance (haven't tried 200A yet), and the sharpness, which also seems to look "softer" in low light. IMHO, if the EX-1 could shoot at 50mb/s on GOP compression, it MAY look much better than DvcproHD 1080.

Yep, Direct to hard disk capture is one cool option now.. Also, the Icon looks interesting. Does the module store data, or does it require an external drive? Any ideas?



www.strypesinpost.com

This is a little scary because that's almost exactly the job I'm doing right now. I was delivered a DVCPro HD 720P60 show (running at 23.98) and I'm pushing it off to our new (and Improved) HDCam SR machine. I'm doing this at 720p59.94 and that should make taking the 'pulldown" out later easier. Any time I can avoid interlace...

Did you know that if you have a master sync generator the SR machines will not accept 720 sync?

We didn't, either. Amaze your friends.

We're using a Kona II, by the way.

The job isn't completed yet, so this could still go in the toilet.

Koz