Transition from analog tv to digital

I am almost sure that it has been discuss before but I can't find it.

Most of my work now days is TV commercials. I usually end up giving the stations either Beta, MiniDV or DVD-ROM.

In February TV turns digital and my local stations still don't know what format I would have to turn my work in.

I shoot mostly DVCPRO HD and down convert to SD, but I want to be ready for the change.

What have you guys heard about it?

God Bless,

Douglas Villalba
director/cinematographer/editor
Miami, Florida

[www.DouglasVillalba.info]
[www.youtube.com]
[vimeo.com]

Nothing here. We can't assume what they will need...only the stations can tell you what format they can use. I don't think the way we shoot & edit will change...just the delivery format.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

I agree on the shoot and edit, but I can't believe that they don't know with only 5 month left.

God Bless,

Douglas Villalba
director/cinematographer/editor
Miami, Florida

[www.DouglasVillalba.info]
[www.youtube.com]
[vimeo.com]

The FCC-mandated transition is from analog transmission to digital transmission. It's got nothing to do with production. There's nothing stopping you from working entirely on VHS, editing from tape to tape, as long as what comes out of your transmitter is a digital signal and not an analog one.

So there's a very real chance what your stations ask for won't change at all. Odds are if they were planning to make changes to their production pipelines, they already would have made those decisions and ordered their new gear, so they'd be able to tell you all about it.

Maybe I should have given more details.

I am in Miami and almost all local stations are already transmitting in HD. They are still running SD commercials (they look like garbage) on their HD channels.

I asked the reps that I deal with when I buy the Media for my clients and they don't have any idea.

I would think that a data DVD would do, but who knows. They still ask for Beta tapes that they have to digitize anyway.

God Bless,

Douglas Villalba
director/cinematographer/editor
Miami, Florida

[www.DouglasVillalba.info]
[www.youtube.com]
[vimeo.com]

Again, the digital TV switchover only relates to transmission, not to production, and not to content either. If your local broadcasters already have digital transmitters ? and they almost surely do ? then all that will happen is that they're going to turn off the analog transmitters. The content itself doesn't have to change. They can still broadcast SD content, or SD content upscaled and transmitted in an HD signal.

So it sounds like, from what you've said so far, that nothing is going to change for you next February.

We have gone almost all the way over to HD production for commercials. We deliver on HDCam SR with an occasional foray into (rental) D5. All the clients also want a downrez version deliverable on DigiBeta. Almost without exception. So we added the HD production but the standard definition didn't go away.

Are you watching off-air digital TV? If you are you know the problems that commercial breaks have switching back and forth between the formats. If you play your cards right, the "TV" (computer in my case) tries to fill the screen with each format to "help you out." My "TV" software company issued a patch that lets me freeze the screen format as a user option to keep it from doing that.

[www.kozco.com]

Koz

Kozikowski Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We have gone almost all the way over to HD
> production for commercials. We deliver on HDCam
> SR with an occasional foray into (rental) D5. All
> the clients also want a downrez version
> deliverable on DigiBeta. Almost without
> exception. So we added the HD production but the
> standard definition didn't go away.
>
> Are you watching off-air digital TV? If you are
> you know the problems that commercial breaks have
> switching back and forth between the formats. If
> you play your cards right, the "TV" (computer in
> my case) tries to fill the screen with each format
> to "help you out." My "TV" software company
> issued a patch that lets me freeze the screen
> format as a user option to keep it from doing
> that.
>
> [www.kozco.com]
>
> Koz

I am glad that you understand what I was asking for. Thanks

So most likely they will ask for HDcam since they almost always favor a Sony format as they do with the doomed BetaSP.

Wouldn't it be easier for them and for us to just give them digitized material like on a Data DVD or even better FTP it to them?

God Bless,

Douglas Villalba
director/cinematographer/editor
Miami, Florida

[www.DouglasVillalba.info]
[www.youtube.com]
[vimeo.com]

Quote

I asked the reps that I deal with when I buy the Media for my clients and they don't have any idea.

...then they are either idiots or you are simply asking the wrong people. The engineers (like koz) will give you your answers. I understand what you are asking for. I wouldn't venture a guess if I were you...could in all probability lead to wasted time & $$$. Ask the RIGHT people. Someone has to throw the switch for broadcast - they will know.

I used to work for a huge Ad Agency in Ft. Lauderdale (ZADV) that was way ahead of it's time. They had adopted the Telestream Box in it's infancy and had us sending our commercials electronically (mpeg2) straight from our Avids. Saved a ton of $$$ in tape stock & FedEx costs. I wonder what they are doing now with HD? What will we all be doing 5 years from now?

I wouldn't even venture a guess.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

grafixjoe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wouldn't venture a guess if I
> were you...could in all probability lead to wasted
> time & $$$. Ask the RIGHT people. Someone has to
> throw the switch for broadcast - they will know.
>
> I used to work for a huge Ad Agency in Ft.
> Lauderdale (ZADV) that was way ahead of it's time.
> They had adopted the Telestream Box in it's
> infancy and had us sending our commercials
> electronically (mpeg2) straight from our Avids.
> Saved a ton of $$$ in tape stock & FedEx costs. I
> wonder what they are doing now with HD? What will
> we all be doing 5 years from now?
>
> I wouldn't even venture a guess.

Koz' answer was exactly the kind of answer that I was looking for. I am not going to go out and buy HDcam deck even if I could, but I want to know who can do the transfer and what it would cost me to have it done.

I know for a fact that I will eventually be ask to deliver in HD and I am not waiting until that time to find out how mush of that cost has to be paid by the client.

ZADV is really ahead of it's time. Now it would be alot easier to FTP your ads than ever before. Why do stations insist on an antiquated tape system?

I just finish editing an ad for our local congressman Lincoln Diaz-Balart ( 30 Sec Ad ) and we had all five local spanish station come to the studio to PU BetaSP tapes.
I would have been so mush faster and cheaper to FTP it.

Between the five laid off hundreds last week alone, but What do I know? They have more money than I do, so maybe they are right and I am wrong.

God Bless,

Douglas Villalba
director/cinematographer/editor
Miami, Florida

[www.DouglasVillalba.info]
[www.youtube.com]
[vimeo.com]

Douglas Villalba Wrote:

> Wouldn't it be easier for them and for us to just
> give them digitized material like on a Data DVD or
> even better FTP it to them?

You'd think so, wouldn't you?

I'm in charge of this for a local station, and we do accept HD spots via data DVD. I don't keep hard numbers on this, but I'd say about 30% of the spots that come in on "data" DVD are actually playable DVDs... they have the spot downrez'd to SD, letterboxed, right there on the DVD -- just pop it in and hit play!

Problem #2 is audio levels. Our automated on-air system can't adjust audio levels on spots brought in electronically. So, if we tell you to master at -20 DBFS, and you master at -12 DBFS, you'll blow the audience out of their seats. In fact, if you are roughly -20 DBFS, but it peaks a little high and we want to bring you down... no can do. We have to reject the spot. Now I either have to load it in in an edit bay, tweak the audio, export it again, and submit it again; or have you drive from across town with another DVD.

This is for data DVDs.

For FTP (which is easier... completely automated, right?!), it goes directly into the "approve" queue from your edit bay. The filename needs to be House#_AD-ID_AGENCY-ID_TRT_Description.mov. The house number, the Ad ID, the Agency ID, and the TRT have to match exactly. If you get confused and send us 00:30:01 and label it 3000... you should see the fur fly. Furthermore, DowntownToyota is different than downtownToyota. AND... once that file is in there with the correct House number... if you screwed something up (any of the above, from audio to compression... which I didn't mention before, but has to be EXACTLY correct, to DF to naming conventions), we can no longer re-file that spot, we have to have a traffic person remove that house number and create a new house number, then we have to communicate that house number to you, then you have to try it again.

So, effort to get a DVD / FTP HD spot:

1) I have to give you the specs, and answer your questions (2hr)
2) Engineer has to kick back your spot 3 or 4 times, because he can't adjust the levels (1hr)
3) Traffic has to re-create that number a few times (1 hr)
4) Each time you communicate with traffic, your sales rep has to call somebody, who then calls you (1hr)

eventually, it gets in.

Or, we make you rent an HD deck (which could cost you hundreds, but costs us $0), you drop the tape off to us (again, our cost, $0), and we put it in a stack that the ingest guy goes through... he spends 5 minutes with it, and it's ready for air.

What would you do?

Technology is full of "someday".... someday this'll be a slick process. Please understand that it's not that easy, today!

Mike Watson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Douglas Villalba Wrote:
>
> > Wouldn't it be easier for them and for us to
> just
> > give them digitized material like on a Data DVD
> or
> > even better FTP it to them?
>
> You'd think so, wouldn't you?
>
> I'm in charge of this for a local station, and we
> do accept HD spots via data DVD. I don't keep
> hard numbers on this, but I'd say about 30% of the
> spots that come in on "data" DVD are actually
> playable DVDs... they have the spot downrez'd to
> SD, letterboxed, right there on the DVD -- just
> pop it in and hit play!
>
> Problem #2 is audio levels. Our automated on-air
> system can't adjust audio levels on spots brought
> in electronically. So, if we tell you to master
> at -20 DBFS, and you master at -12 DBFS, you'll
> blow the audience out of their seats. In fact, if
> you are roughly -20 DBFS, but it peaks a little
> high and we want to bring you down... no can do.
> We have to reject the spot. Now I either have to
> load it in in an edit bay, tweak the audio, export
> it again, and submit it again; or have you drive
> from across town with another DVD.
>
> This is for data DVDs.
>
> For FTP (which is easier... completely automated,
> right?!), it goes directly into the "approve"
> queue from your edit bay. The filename needs to
> be House#_AD-ID_AGENCY-ID_TRT_Description.mov.
> The house number, the Ad ID, the Agency ID, and
> the TRT have to match exactly. If you get
> confused and send us 00:30:01 and label it 3000...
> you should see the fur fly. Furthermore,
> DowntownToyota is different than downtownToyota.
> AND... once that file is in there with the correct
> House number... if you screwed something up (any
> of the above, from audio to compression... which I
> didn't mention before, but has to be EXACTLY
> correct, to DF to naming conventions), we can no
> longer re-file that spot, we have to have a
> traffic person remove that house number and create
> a new house number, then we have to communicate
> that house number to you, then you have to try it
> again.
>
> So, effort to get a DVD / FTP HD spot:
>
> 1) I have to give you the specs, and answer your
> questions (2hr)
> 2) Engineer has to kick back your spot 3 or 4
> times, because he can't adjust the levels (1hr)
> 3) Traffic has to re-create that number a few
> times (1 hr)
> 4) Each time you communicate with traffic, your
> sales rep has to call somebody, who then calls you
> (1hr)
>
> eventually, it gets in.
>
> Or, we make you rent an HD deck (which could cost
> you hundreds, but costs us $0), you drop the tape
> off to us (again, our cost, $0), and we put it in
> a stack that the ingest guy goes through... he
> spends 5 minutes with it, and it's ready for air.
>
> What would you do?

I am going to prophetize here.

In an economy like we have today they'll be lucky to get ads at all.

The system is flawed because no one cares. All they have to do is to spend a few minutes to create a simple pdf to tell us what it is that they need.

If they look at us as a problem, we are a problem. If they realize that we put food on their table then there would be no problem.

I recently shot a spot for a national spanish Obama commercial. Their editors and agency are in Texas. All I did was uploaded to an ftp site and e mail them the link. The next day the ad was running.

We can spend time looking at the problem or we can save time by finding a solution.

What would you do?

God Bless,

Douglas Villalba
director/cinematographer/editor
Miami, Florida

[www.DouglasVillalba.info]
[www.youtube.com]
[vimeo.com]

Quote

What would you do?

Not give myself an ulcer worrying about things I can't control.

BUT...if, one day, the "Grand Supreme Ruler Of All Digital Signals" comes to me and says "Joey...tell me what I can do to make your life easier on this planet and it shall be, my son"...then I will tell him "ONE STANDARD FORMAT / NO MORE FIELDS / ELECTRONIC DELIVERY / NO MORE TAPES".

Until that day comes, I ask the Clients / Broadcasters what they need to get that signal to the satellite. I ask until I find out - not taking "I don't know" as an answer.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Quote

ONE STANDARD FORMAT / NO MORE FIELDS / ELECTRONIC DELIVERY / NO MORE TAPES

Youtube it is. Go forth and bitch no more.

Quote

Youtube it is. Go forth and bitch no more.

WRONG. That is the most whacked out reply I could have gotten. YouTube is NOT broadcast quality (?)

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Joey? Buddy? That was a joke.

No more lattes for Joey today. I'm cutting him off.

Ah. This helps:



When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Bureaucracy is the source of all problems. From government down to the corporate world.

If you record news happening on your I phone they will do whatever it takes to air it.

If you are bringing them a commercial someone in charge of traffic wants to feel important, so they would give the information in pieces so you have ask and ask again.

I give agencies what they ask for. If they need something different I charge again. Let them play games with the traffic controllers.

When I buy media myself I make sure I know what every station wants.

That is why I started this thread. I want to know now what they will need in 3 1/2 months.

Anyone wants to buy a 3/4" Umatic?

God Bless,

Douglas Villalba
director/cinematographer/editor
Miami, Florida

[www.DouglasVillalba.info]
[www.youtube.com]
[vimeo.com]

It may not be call YouTube but soon everything on tv will be on demand.

More and more customers ask for commercials for the net.

God Bless,

Douglas Villalba
director/cinematographer/editor
Miami, Florida

[www.DouglasVillalba.info]
[www.youtube.com]
[vimeo.com]

Quote

Youtube it is. Go forth and bitch no more.

It changes all the time. That's why we have to ask the right questions to the right people who know the right answers.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Douglas Villalba Wrote:
> In an economy like we have today they'll be lucky
> to get ads at all.
>
> The system is flawed because no one cares. All
> they have to do is to spend a few minutes to
> create a simple pdf to tell us what it is that
> they need.

Read what I said again. I have a simple pdf that tells you what we need. What I was just pointing out was that despite that, we are still getting spots on playable DVDs that are "in HD". Better than 50% of those that come in .MOV are wrong. Furthermore, there is a large contingent out there that edit on PC, or Avid, or Sony Vegas, or, or, or... who can't do "quicktime conversion", or "use this droplet in Compressor".

Trust me when I say I'd rather have 100% of it come in digitally, and never have another tape on my desk. We're just not there yet.

I'm with Joey, I'd rather have a single standard... ANY standard... that everyone could get to.

Hey Mike

I'm not wading in here to drag it all up again, I understand why you choose do it in this way - simplicity.

What I don't get is the audio level issue... maybe you can clarify.

If the Audio level is set on the Mastering for HDCAM/SR then its not going to be any different on the Quicktime.

Are you saying that you use a limiter, compressor or use an automation gain when you ingest from tape if the levels are wrong? Surely not...

If this was the case in the UK they'd send the tape back and say "DO IT AGAIN - PROPERLY!!!" - so I'm slightly confused why a digital file makes such a huge difference as you should only be accepting on spec spots/programmes with both the correct audio and video levels?

Regarding encoding to a MPEG (2/4) Broadcast stream for a distribution/content server... Do you run the video through a broadcast legalizer to clip out of range levels?



A few thoughts to deal with your time-wasters!

Quote

1) I have to give you the specs, and answer your questions (2hr)

All stations should have their delivery specs available and if this includes digital file transfer then its 2 hours for someone to write it one time and then 0 seconds for you as it should be on your deliverables page on your website.

If they (the onliners) don't understand it then they shouldn't be doing the online - point them to a consultant or engineer and charge the going rate for support!

Quote

2) Engineer has to kick back your spot 3 or 4 times, because he can't adjust the levels (1hr)

If I submitted it - I would be charged for anything out of spec on an online!

If the audio levels are out - it goes back to the sound guy(s) and gets sorted and we are charged for any subsequent tech checks.

They certainly won't waste your time again - if they do (then they are at best morons) charge them progressively more for being inept!!!

In the UK we also have to deal with the PSE (Photo-Sensitive Epilepsy) issue and if it fails a Harding test [www.hardingfpa.com] we have to sort it then pay for a retest!

You guys just wait til you have to abide by it in the US - there will be a serious flood of LAFCPUG posts with "HARDING HELP!" in the title I can tell you!

Quote

3) Traffic has to re-create that number a few times (1 hr)

Why don't you implement a simple incremental system for numbers?

All the programme ID stays the same except you have a version number!

Example: At the BBC if a programme - lets call it PROGRAMME ID #1 - fails a tech check then it goes back, gets sorted and the new number is automatically #2 and so on...

Again, you charge them for screwing up. They'll soon learn to hire a decent onliner or write the filename correctly!

This information should all be in the specs too so there is no confusion. It should be in plain English with examples so there is no excuse for them to screw up and a warning that they will be charged if they do.

Quote

4) Each time you communicate with traffic, your sales rep has to call somebody, who then calls you (1hr)

If you followed my suggestions above there would be no need for this unless someone at station screws up which obviously never happens.



As an editor I have hardware that can take in just about any format (with the relevant deck hire) and my clients don't come to me and worry about whether I can handle it.

As an outlet, a station, a business that relies on creative content made by the variety of companies and systems out there - surely you want to make it easy and quick for all parties?

I think everyone should be implementing a digital workflow option into their delivery system and I hope you guys get there without the issues you have had in the past!

Lastly I just wanted to reiterate one thing...

...if they screw up - charge em!

or give them my number



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

>4) Each time you communicate with traffic, your sales rep has to call somebody, who
>then calls you (1hr)

Urgh! Bureucracy. That's one of the things I can't stand... I wish the tech guys will call me directly and tell me what's wrong. There was once I was dealt with a station who simply refused to tell me where to peak at (and it's definitely different from the printed specs)... And everything went back and forth through the sales guys on their end and the producers on my end with comments that went along the lines of "slightly louder" or "slightly softer", until I finally realized they were looking at -6dBfs (which is quite unique for broadcast, especially when I have my reference tone at -20dBs). From then on, the rest of the series went smoothly without a hitch...



www.strypesinpost.com

So Ben,

What format are they going with on the other side of the pond?

God Bless,

Douglas Villalba
director/cinematographer/editor
Miami, Florida

[www.DouglasVillalba.info]
[www.youtube.com]
[vimeo.com]

Well...

For the main broadcasters.

BBC (and all subsidiary channels) is SD Digital Betacam Widescreen 16:9 FHA D1 PAL 50i or HDCAM SR 1080i50 or 25Psf 4:2:2 YUV (not sure about 4:4:4 RGB)

ITV (and all subsidiary channels) is same but they also take BETA SX and HDCAM and offer FTP delivery of digital files for Commercials.

Channel 4 (and all subsidiary channels) is similar again but are testing digital delivery as far as I am aware.

five don't have their HD specs set as yet and not sure on digital file delivery.

Sky HD want 1080p25 on HDCAM SR


This is the latest information that I have but obviously you would be best to check with the relevant channel for specifics.

Other channels I'm not sure about...



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Here in Orlando, the people I have dealt with are:

The Golf Channel: HDCAM, SD DigiBeta

EA Sports: DVCPRO-HD 720p 59.94, SD DigiBeta are the main formats...but we take DV, DVCAM, BetaSP as well. You can't imagine the whacked out formats we have to conform to in-game.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

I was reading somewhere that a lot of these broadcasters are starting to use BluRay as a broadcast format. Also they are saying that bluray is slowly entering a battle with other delivery media.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"

Quote

I was reading somewhere that a lot of these broadcasters are starting to use BluRay as a broadcast format. Also they are saying that bluray is slowly entering a battle with other delivery media.

What pills are you taking for your delusions?

BluRay is a DISC - NOT a broadcast delivery format...

If you really are reading these things, then please link the articles rather than just posting the highly suspect information which you vaguely reference.


Might it be that you are mixing up Delivery Media for Broadcast and Delivery Media from Broadcasters to the consumers?

eg: the BBC (et al) might make a BluRay copy of its HD programmes for sale to the public

They certainly are NOT accepting BluRay as a master for programme or any other sub 100Mbps CODEC that is highly compressed for that matter.

Now if you meant BD-ROM (with files on like a DVD-ROM or CD-ROM) then maybe - as you can fit up to 50GB on a dual layer disc and you might be able to fit about 57 mins programme on in 1080i50 HD as a file such as ProRes.



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Quote

J.Corbett says:
I was reading somewhere that a lot of these broadcasters are starting to use BluRay as a broadcast format. Also they are saying that bluray is slowly entering a battle with other delivery media.

"THEY"? Who's "THEY"? Where were you reading that? Which Broadcasters are accepting this format? No link? No article / magazine / issue date? Of course not. You want to start meaningful conversations corbett, post some facts (links to "THEY" to back up your statements. Otherwise it's just hot air.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Back when i was asking this forum what the broadcasters accept to air on their station. I did quite a lot of searching. I found an article on CC where a guy was saying that broadcaster are starting accept BluRay from commercial makers.

Here i have given at least 7-R's to my local cable station and it ran without any question. Now maybe the terminology that i am using is incorrect but i know that here they will take a dvd.

I will try to find the article later and post it.

""" What you do with what you have, is more important than what you could do, with what you don't have."

> > > Knowledge + Action = Wisdom - J. Corbett 1992 """"