OT : best no compromise, import from a CD?

Hi, hi

first off wishing you all a great 2009

I have a slightly off topic Q

am wondering what is the best way to import a CD for critical listening on a big fat, no compromise Hi Fi system?

i.e. a media library connected to a mac book which is exclusively meant for music for pleasure!!!

yes I, know with with iTunes, AIFF, 16 bit, stereo etc

but there is no way of controlling the speed at which iTunes reads the disc...

or is there an alternatives to iTunes or a work around?

another program?

a really slow external drive for slow reading of discs?

or some little hack to slow down my internal drive?

best

Paul

Just drag-and-drop the AIFF file from the CD in the Finder. You'll never get any better audio off a CD than that.

Hi Jeff

That sounds like a great idea. Just drag the file in there. No Sorcery ;-)

Obviously being Apple it works.

Having opened the files in iTunes, the name of the track is there, but no album name & no artist name is there....

And I am looking at doing this for aprox 1,000 CD´s.

i.e. with this wonderful method I will need to copy and paste the Album name, artist name & create playlist all per hand. 1 CD at a time.

Is this the price of no compromise or are there any alternatives?

thanks

Paul

in your iTunes prefs tell it to get the track names from the internet.
in fact, tell iTune to automaticaly start importing as soon as you put the CD in.
and tell the finder to (Apple Menu > system prefs) to arc up ITunes when you put a CD in, too.

(this is from a guy how had done a lot of CD importing!)

as this is an audiophile discussion, you must know that using the dicky little headphone jack is a BAD way to hook up to your sound system.

ideally you would have some sort of audio interface, USB or FW.
but even then, i suspect that a top of the range CD PLAYER will be better, cheaper, and far less time-consuming.


nick

thanks for the feed back guys

no worries I wouldn´t dream of using that little phone socket

I will be going USB to a thing called a DAC, Digital Audio Converter

something like this......

[www.psaudio.com]

following Jeff amazingly simple strategy works great

but inside iTunes when I import the folder, iTunes organizes the files for me

no problem I thought in the advanced setting I can turn off, "Keep iTunes organized"

then the newly imported songs all land at the top of my Library

i.e. 1 Blah, 2 blah, 3 blah etc

but iTunes is still organizing, guess that it is because it is basically a data base and this is what data bases do

what ever, my guess is that I can search using a recently added filter, e.g. added today

and organize myself

now the really horrible bit comes....

I find my files, make my play list and go to "get track information" and iTunes says "iTunes can not get track names for songs that were not imported using iTunes"

agggghhhh

So as of now work flow would be as follows

A) import per drag and drop into a folder for the CD
B) open this folder i iTunes
C) get the contents of this folder into a playlist
D) copy & paste album & artist into the columns in my playlist

sorry guys, maybe I really need to go to a Hi Fi forum

it is just one of those grey areas

best

Paul

that's crazy work, paul.

in all humility, you should do what i suggested.

in your iTunes prefs tell it to get the track names from the internet.
tell iTune to automaticaly start importing as soon as you put the CD in.
and tell the finder to (Apple Menu > system prefs) to arc up ITunes when you put a CD in, too.


let iTunes organise.
that's referring to it organising the files in the finder for you
then you can search, etc inside itunes however you want, and make playlists anyway you want, including "smart" playlists, or the new "GENIUS" playlists.


all the best,
nick

hi nick

I know it´s crazy but Hi Fi freaks are sick

I have serious discussions with friends about different cables, feet for the amplifier etc and needless to say I have been filtering my electricity for years!!!

Even had a battery run amplifier until I fried it!!!


And, yes I suspect that I will find a better method

am looking at other stuff as well

e.g.

[www.exactaudiocopy.de]

which works on a PC

or maybe even something like this

[tmkk.hp.infoseek.co.jp]

if there were a scratch on the CD for example EAC (exact audio copy) will read the place where the scratch is again and again until it gets as much info as possible

think that I need to hook up a really old slow CD ROM drive anyway


maybe I need to get someone to write a little XMl script to trick the iTunes Library!


forgive my stupidity but what I don´t get is to "arc up ITunes when you put a CD"

what does this mean?


thanks

Paul

> "arc up ITunes when you put a CD"

That's a new found Cockney pronounciation for "Run System Preferences, under "hardware" CDs & DVDs", "When you insert a music CD:", "open iTunes"



www.strypesinpost.com

"Hi Fi freaks are sick"

yeah! sometimes i flip thu the "Audio Fidelity" mag at the newsagent just to freak myself out!
5 grand for a power board!

"Arc up"
yeah, sorry, Aussie term for start up. (and it should have read "when you put IN a CD"
Gerard explained it.

with my set-up i just put a CD in, and iTunes will open, get the track names, and import.
simple

iTunes does have the import option "use error correction". I dont know if that will improve things for you.

You can set iTunes to acces the cd database, but NOT import.
this names the CD files in the finder, and then you can manually drag them to wherever, or maybe import using some other device.

oh, and i checked my settings and remembered i DONT let iTunes "organise" my library.
it still puts them in the right place when i import a CD, but it doesn't try to second guess me if i add my own collection of files.


cheers,
nick

>iTunes does have the import option "use error correction"

Hi-Fi freaks here... Error correction technology may compromise the quality of your audio, so turn it off and make sure the CD is clean, has no scratches or dirt.



www.strypesinpost.com

this sounds really interesting

means....

figure out my no compromise method with importing music as slowly as possible

import the CD data base stuff in i Tunes, not the music as such

and connect, Viola!

ONLY ;-) 3 questions now....

1) where the hell is the option for importing the data base stuff only

have gone through the preferences & menus but haven´t seen anything, maybe I am blind

2) have I understood this correctly when I do above, i.e. 1) this will create a folder structure and all I have to do then is drag & drop my manually imported files into the relevant folder that itunes made & iTunes will do the rest

or do I have to do something, i.e. step 3) to connect all the stuff up, a little like reconnecting material in FCP

thanks

Paul

> where the hell is the option for importing the data base stuff only

You mean without importing the files? iTunes menu - Advanced - Get CD Track Names. I was always under the impression that the metadata is in iTunes only and won't get applied if you convert within Mac OS, but according to Nick's post above, my impression was incorrect.

I always name the files by hand because the online CD database (still called Gracenote CDDB?) has horrible spelling and even worse formatting. A 10-year-old can submit CD track names and they're not known for their proofreading skills. And wrong metadata can result in failed searches, misorganization etc. Not to mention when they flat-out name the tracks wrong and you get "Think about You" when you're reaching for "Sweet Child O' Mine".

> oh, and i checked my settings and remembered i DONT let iTunes "organise" my library.

I emphatically agree -- absolutely not! iTunes does a terrible job adding useless information to your files. This is why I actually downgraded from iTunes 8 back to iTunes 7 on my computer, because iTunes 8 has some absolutely moronic functions:

a) You now have no option to turn off "add track numbers", which means now when you import 500 songs from CDs, about 50 of your files will start with "01", which only serves to muddy up your file management. Just why they think this is good, I have no idea, especially considering track-listing information (pretty useless anyway once a track is turned into a file) is embedded into the iTunes metadata, and even if it werent, finding out which track on a CD it is (again, what does it matter?) only takes a brief internet search.

b) It now always puts an iTunes store link on whatever track you have selected -- even though you already own that track! Again, more onscreen garbage.

Always turn off all the "automatic" file functions in iTunes such as "Keep Library Organized", "Copy files to iTunes library" and so on. I've seen countless computers with completely incomprehensible music libraries thanks to iTunes dazzlingly incompetent, counter-intuitive file-management structure.


www.derekmok.com

What's this fetishistic fascination with filenames? I hate dealing with files on my computer. I welcome any program or function that isolates me from having to know where or how files are stored on my disks. I bought a laptop to deal with that kind of trivia for me, not to give me yet another thing to have to be anal-retentive about.

> What's this fetishistic fascination with filenames? I hate dealing with files on my computer. I
> welcome any program or function that isolates me from having to know where or how files are
> stored on my disks.

Jeff, have you ever had to reinstall your system drive and have your entire 30,000-file iTunes library import as "Track 1", "Track 1 Copy", "Track 1 Copy Copy", etc.? A musician friend of mine just had that, because she had named the tracks in iTunes after conversion from CD, instead of before. That little mistake may cost her having to rename 30,000 files by hand...not to mention the fact that she'd have to know which track is which to get the correct names.

Plus, if you leave "Copy to library" open, you'd have unnecessary multiple copies of music files.

I have more like 60,000 files in my music library, and to clean up the organization, I have to ixnay iTunes' file structure -- for example, I have to organize artist names by last name, not first name (I don't want 20 folders back to back starting with the name "Michael", thank you very much). Now imagine 60,000 files, and 5,000 of them start with "01", as iTunes 8 would have it. Does that help anybody?

And I kill the "album" folders because they're irrelevant to me -- again, the metadata on which album a track comes from is in iTunes, and is definitely retained in the file and not software preferences, because I've moved those MP3s to a PC Avid XPress system and the track names, artist names, all the iTunes information migrates just fine. I do:

[Master MP3s folder] - Genre - Artist Names by Last Name - Actual MP3 files.


www.derekmok.com

yeah, I see that option, thanks

"Get CD Track Names"

iTunes is actually doing this for me automatically any way

but what I am still not getting is in my import setting there is no option to import Names only


How do I do the actual import, i.e. data ONLY import?

obviously as soon as I eject the disk this info is gone........

i.e. I have to set up the scaffolding so to speak in iTunes so that I can do my anal Hi Fi import & re-link?

having got the scaffolding, I am still not sure how to link up every thing

is iTunes really clever/stupid enough to get in the way and do this for me?


am pretty much stone age and don´t even have an iTunes account.......

Guess that it is a philosophical question but I hate clever things that get between me & what I am trying to do

Can usually deal with my own cleverness / stupidness better than that of others

or at least I like to think so

Look, man, it's not my fault people don't know how to use iTunes. It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools. ;-)

Jeff you´re right

should probably stick to the day job

> How do I do the actual import, i.e. data ONLY import?
> obviously as soon as I eject the disk this info is gone........

Hmm, so it looks like I wasn't wrong about the metadata.
Try this. Insert the CD, get CD track names with iTunes. Pop the CD back out, and then re-mount it again. See if the metadata gets onto the CD at the OS level this time.


www.derekmok.com

hi Derek

Ok, I have the CD in there now

The track names etc are there.....

I´v gone into my Advanced preferences and turned off the "Automatically retrieve track names from internet" option

Would have thought, no, CD, no track names

I´ve put the CD back in now

Wow he has the track names in there, wow very clever

now because I am paranoid I am going to repeat and pull my ethernet cable

same, no "Auto Retrieve", no internet connection, track names are their

amazing, so he is storing this info in an XML data in an iTunes Library some where

i.e. theoretical the following should work

A) stick the CDs into the computer with iTunes open and do NO import

B) do my super slow Hi Fi import separately,

C) and some how reconnect......

But the reconnect thing still stumps me, because this is not going to happen in iTunes is it are we looking at XML editing here?

Also when I make a playlist and pull the tracks into it the computer starts importing?

Still confused

Paul

We need to solve this and fast... An extended discussion on media management strategy of CD names sounds pretty obsessive, even if we're dealing with a music library...



www.strypesinpost.com

> But the reconnect thing still stumps me, because this is not going to happen in iTunes is it are
> we looking at XML editing here?

Here's how it works in my understanding.

When you first insert a CD, Mac OS will look in your iTunes software data to see if it's a CD you've worked with before. If you've named that CD's tracks and the CD itself in iTunes before, then OS will apply that information and you will see those names even in OS. So I'm gathering if you then did the drag-and-drop option, the metadata on track names will be there. (Not sure about other iTunes metadata such as track number, artist name etc. -- which are equally useful)

However, if a CD is unrecognized when it's first inserted, OS will revert to a "blank template" of Track 1, Track 2 etc. If you rename the CD in iTunes, iTunes will have that information, but OS is still using its original "blank template". The act of ejecting the CD and then remounting it forces OS to re-read the CD, and by now you have the information, so OS appropriates that information.

So I'm pretty sure it should be:

1. Insert CD.
2. Name the CD, tracks etc. -- all relevant metadata in iTunes. Either do it by hand or use Get CD Track Names from Internet. I don't like Gracenote CDDB, but it doesn't mean others don't.
3. Eject the CD.
4. Re-mount the CD. Track names should pop up in OS as you left them. Drag and drop.


> now because I am paranoid I am going to repeat and pull my ethernet cable
> same, no "Auto Retrieve", no internet connection, track names are there

The other reason I don't like Gracenote CDDB is that once iTunes gathers up all that metadata from the internet, you can't undo it. So if there's false information buried in there somewhere -- say, Metallica got put into the "Death Metal" genre, or they got the composer information wrong -- you have to manually find each and every one of the mistakes.

If you do want to use the online database, all you need is the internet connection when you first insert the disc. The metadata will get embedded in your iTunes database, so when you insert the disc subsequently, the data is retrieved from your computer, not online -- hence no internet connection is needed.

> C) and some how reconnect......

What reconnect? You mentioned this in all your posts and I don't get what you're referring to.


www.derekmok.com

the point of the exercise is to get the best quality audio

that is why I wanted to avoid using iTunes to import the music as such

this is why I am looking at options such as

[www.exactaudiocopy.de]

direct from their site

"It works with a technology, which reads audio CDs almost perfectly. If there are any errors that can?t be corrected, it will tell you on which time position the (possible) distortion occurred......."

and

"With other audio grabbers you usually need to listen to every grabbed wave because they only do jitter correction. Scratched CDs read on CD-ROM drives often produce distortions. But listening to every extracted audio track is a waste of time. Exact Audio Copy conquer these problems by making use of several technologies like multi-reading with verify and AccurateRip."

As I understand it if iTunes encounters a problem by importing it, it will attempt to basically do some fancy foot work to try and work around the problem!

If programs like EAC encounter a problem they will keep reading and reading until the squeeze as much available info out of the CD, under the circumstances.

If it is a real stubborn problem it will let you know.

maybe a little bit like a high end digiBeta recorder that writes a report saying that the white level we´re clipped at minute blah.

I was hoping to have my cake and eat it.

i.e. import no compromise quality audio (NOT with iTunes)
& use the convenience of the iTunes library

This is why I talk about reconnecting, maybe it is the wrong expression, am of course stealing this from FCP!

Thought that it would work like this

A) no compromise import, audio files (NOT with iTunes)
B) import track names etc with iTunes
C) stick A & B together somehow

maybe I am way off track here......

good night & thanks for you´re patience, need to get up early for the day job tomorrow

best

Paul

some other workflows:

1.
get CD track names using iTunes.
as you know, the names are now read in the finder.
import using your whiz-bang device. maybe the names will come, too.

2.
get names using SOME OTHER device (access gracenote manualy?)
etc.

3.
import a CD using iTunes AND your out-of-this-world importer.
see if you can hear the difference.

seems like the benefit is only on danmaged tracks,
as an audiofile you will have kept your CDs in pristine condition

4.
import your entire library with iTunes,
as you listen to it, if you hear a problem, RE-import just that track with the magic-o-tron,
and enter the name manually.
will probably happen on 1 in a hundred tracks, probably less.



nick

>import a CD using iTunes AND your out-of-this-world importer.
>see if you can hear the difference.

I suppose you could try the acid test... Import both, invert the phase on one of them, and play them both out at the same time. It should be silent.



www.strypesinpost.com

many thanks to all of you

you have given me a lot of food for thought

sometimes out of the world stuff is really ordinary

one thing is pretty certain at the center of the "out-of-this-world importer" is going to be an antique Yamaha CD Rom Drive

a fellow Hi Fi freak has 4 of them, just in case......

don´t know what they cost but it´s probably possible to pick one up at a garage sale for a couple of dollars!


yes I need to do some tests and maybe if any one is interested I could write a little tutorial some day?

I suspect that there will be huge differences, but then I maintain that I can hear huge differences between different cables for example

This is incidentally the pay back for being a Hi Fi freak and investing all that money in cables etc

depending on the cable the CD sounds completely different

for example, just have one CD and 1000 cables.....


So as of now

A) simple test listen to iTunes captured CD, with built in Apple CD Rom
B) listen to "out-of-this-world imported" CD, with above mentioned CD ROM from Yamaha, & EAC or similar

C) assuming that I / we can hear a difference import using following method


1) Insert CD in iTunes so that files turn up on finder level
2) Use "out of the world import method, i.e. the best ever CD Rom drive (Yamaha) and EAC or similar
3) Import manually into i Tunes
4) Make play list & tidy up so that every thing can be controlled using something similar to this, the last link in the chain........


[www.logitech.com]

maybe if I work hard enough I can save up for this

[www.logitech.com]

is just a little bit to sick for me at the moment but maybe another year and then.......

best wishes & thanks again

Paul