Sharing Media and setting up Systems

I am looking to set up an Edit bay and an Assistant Editor bay with the intent of both systems sharing the same media.

I need Raid storage for about 140 hrs of 4k Red data, which those systems will be using for the offline edit.

I would also need to be able to play-back 2k files through a 30" Apple Display for visual-effects review.

Here's my question: What hardware configuration do I need for both FCP systems to share the media? What kind of storage? what kind of software (xsan? FCP Server?)?

I know nothing.

Know nothing? Hire someone who does. DO NOT take advice from anyone here as to what to get and then try to set it up yourself. Hire a company that specializes in shared media storage, and the kind that can handle the 4K footage you are talking about.

Want me to give you a name? I have a guy who is great at this. And not too expensive. But warning, the hardware might be.

Bob Zelin gave a demo of a great Ethernet solution that runs about $14k...but that doesn't allow you to manage sharing permissions. All depends on your needs. But seriously, get people to do this.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

why do you want to offline with 4k files?
isn't that overkill?

a compressed format like ProRes would be a LOT easier to work with.


nick

There are a variety of Red workflows, one of which involves using REDCODE proxy movies for your offline. These proxy movies are smaller ? half-K or 1K is typical ? but they have to be stored in the same folder as the R3D files from the camera. In that workflow, you still need to lug all the 4K media around even for your offline.

Which is why that workflow is pretty rare these days.

Now, opinions vary on this, and I'm not trying to speak authoritatively here. But from what I've seen, there's really no reason at all for a 4K finish. If you're going out to film, you're going to be sending 2K DPX sequences to the recorder. If you're doing a digital theatrical projection, it's overwhelmingly likely to be on a 2K projector. And it's damned hard to spot the difference between 2K and 4K projector in a typical cinema anyway.

The most critical part of Red workflow is deciding exactly when to get out of the 4K R3D format. You should get out as soon as possible, but no sooner.

But this wasn't a workflow question. It was an engineering question, and Shane's answer is the correct one. This is emphatically not a do-it-yourself project.

Ah...

I see now that I have not been clear.

Basically, I am trying to help out a film that was shot using the Red camera and set-up their editorial pipeline. I am used to working in an AVID workflow, using captured or digitized media and storing those files on an AVID Unity system - allowing multiple systems to work together.

What is the best way to achieve the shared workspace that is typical in an Avid Unity set-up?

As for all the storage, and the 4k data that I mentioned, all of their data is in the R3D format, and I thought that the best FCP workflow was to edit using proxies - therefore, all of that data would need to live on a RAID that the editing systems would be accessing.

Also, we will be reviewing 2k .dpx sequences for VFX reviews, and it would be nice to view them played back at full-rez (using Scratch?). Alternatively, we could playback high-rez QT's.

Our finish will either be HD or 2k (probably 2k), so there is no need for a 4k finish. Sorry if I gave the indication that I was thinking that was a possibility.

Phillip

I'm not sure if Philip Hodgetts has put the movies up yet but we should have a LAFCPUG meeting movie of Jim Kanter showing his sharing workflow in FCP that may help you. Hopefully it's up and Michael Horton can direct you to this workflow.

------------------------
Dean

"When I see you floating down the gutter I'll give you a bottle of wine."
Captain Beefheart, Trout Mask Replica.

>What is the best way to achieve the shared workspace that is typical in an Avid Unity set-up?

Again, hire someone who knows about SAN setups with FCP to consult you and recommend and install the setup that best suits your needs. There is XSAN, SANmp, MetaSAN and half a dozen other options. And all, just like a Unity, require a specialist to setup and configure. Again, I can give you the name of a couple people who are very knowledgeable and very reasonably priced.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

I do agree that a paid consultant is the way to go. Right now, however, I don't know if I can pay a consultant...

Any names would be appreciated, and I'd be happy to call them.

Can't pay someone? And don't know anything about the subject? Recipe for disaster.

TJ Ryan: 818.292.3724
Nathan Adams: 323.776.3539

TJ would be your best bet...I just gave Nate as a second option.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

...sigh...

This is why I hate forums... people put words in your mouth and jump to conclusions.

I did not say I didn't have money to pay someone. I did say that I didn't KNOW if I had the money or not. As things go in production, you don't know where the deal stands until it's signed and deposited in the bank.

Therefore, I am looking for as much brotherly advice that I can find while I'm putting together a temp budget (which is why I turned to a forum instead of calling any number of companies that I can find on my own).

Thanks for the names. I'll give them a shout on Monday.

I am also talking to editors that I know, and they all have their own opinions...

Sorry man...I misread then.

I have experience with XSAN and SanMP. SanMP makes volumes that allow people to have read/write access, and only they can read/write to the drive. Others can mount it and read only.

XSAN makes the volume read/write for everyone.

Both are Fibre options and a tad spendy.

My guys will be able to get you better information, and far more options.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Any experience with the CalDigit HDPro storage? [www.caldigit.com]

And I think you've answered one of my questions... I am curious though how permissions would be controlled. Like if the editor is working on a sequence, then the assistant wouldn't be able to touch it because it's in use, etc...

Is this what FinalCut Server is for?

I have the HD One....Yeah, the HD Pro is very good. BUT, you can't just get that drive and hook it up to a server. The server is a whole integrated thing. The HD Pro is a great single station unit, and works with certain kinds of servers.

Unlike Avid you cannot have the same project open on multiple machines. Because unlike Avid, FCP is one file, while Avid projects consist of many many files. This is how one bin can be locked by a user. You can't do this with FCP...you have to change your entire workflow with FCP. Thus the need for a consultant who knows that workflow, AND knows the server side. TJ is that man.

Final Cut Server is not for this...you wouldn't use it in this manner. It has an entirely different purpose. Allows producers and other people to review footage on the main edit server and work with proxies and make notes that will appear in the FCP project. But I know just the basics of that.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Final Cut Server is an asset management system. If you set up your workflow just right it takes care of all your media management for you. It works with Xsan, but only in a minimal way, allowing you to use assets stored on the SAN in your Final Cut projects without having to cache them locally first.

But it, too, requires an expert to set it up.

Here is a link to Steve Kanter's way of doing FCP Unity style.


[www.editorsguild.com]

------------------------
Dean

"When I see you floating down the gutter I'll give you a bottle of wine."
Captain Beefheart, Trout Mask Replica.

Quote

This is why I hate forums... people put words in your mouth and jump to conclusions.

That's why you don't go to forums for this type of request.

Quote

I did say that I didn't KNOW if I had the money or not. As things go in production, you don't know where the deal stands until it's signed and deposited in the bank.

As things go into production, this is why you PLAN for this expense in the budget. This should not be an afterthought - but a necessity.

If you are serious and are willing to pay for Professional advice & service, I would call Bob Zelin. He is the one that set up and maintains an ethernet shared storage system between 5 HD FCP workstations that we currently use now @ EA Sports (36 TB) with the Blackmagic Videohub. It is quite inexpensive as compared to Final Cut Server (ridiculously overpriced).

Crazy Bob is at maxavid@cfl.rr.com. Tell him Joey from EA Sports sent you. Ask him about our set-up.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Speaking of Bob Z, if you are feeling ballsy you can read his guide to building your own SAN, but this isn't for the weak of heart and when something goes wrong *you* are the tech support.
[magazine.creativecow.net]

Unless you are a no-budget indie w/more time than money I gotta agree w/everyone else that hiring in someone knows what to do is the best way to go.

Editshare is another company that offers not only shared storage but media and project management solutions as well. [www.editshare.com]

Joe, did you mean to say xSan and not Final Cut Server? Also, we've had Blackmagic Video Hub over here for about 8 months now and have been very pleased w/it. How long have you guys had yours and how do you like it? We've only got 5 FCP stations, 5 video game capture stations and a handful of decks on ours now but we planning to bring the other 9 FCP stations onto the hub this year.


-Andrew

Yeah, I'm confused by that too. Videohub is just a particularly nifty SDI/422 router; Final Cut Server is an asset management system. I have a hard time understanding in what way the two could ever be compared.

My bad...Xsan it is.

I meant to say we got the 36 TB ethernet shared storage system AND THE VIDEOHUB for less $$$ than if we had gone with the overpriced Xsan set-up.

Anyway, sounds like you & I have close to the same set-up, Andrew...5 FCP stations / 5 fully equipped game capture stations (plus 2 more we can set up on the fly in the machine room if things get biz-zay - like now...Tiger Woods PGA TOUR 10 is cookin' full speed ahead). We priced out a full Apple Media Sharing solution and Bob Z told us how "crazy" we were and brought this ethernet solution to the table at a fraction of the price (Applecare ALONE for the whole Xsan set-up is enough to make you vomit)...and maintenance is almost 0. If a drive dies, we take one off the shelf, hot swap it in and the RAID rebuilds itself. Permissions are easy as well.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

We have a 60 (64?) TB xSan over here w/nearly 20 clients on it (obviously not everyone on the xSan is hooked up to the Video Hub) and the cost *is* jaw dropping. When I first started here 2-3 years ago the xSan was only 4TB. The new Promise Tech storage Apple switch to after discontinuing their xServe RAIDs has been less than stellar so far. We had more hardware related problems w/the Promise Tech in the first 4 months of it being up than we had in the last two years w/the Apple hardware. Hopefully it gets better (especially w/E3 coming quickly).

Are you are the EA Campus just north of Playa Del Ray? I'm over in Santa Monica. We should hook up and compare notes sometime.


-Andrew

Joey is in Florida. Only three mods in the LOS ANGELES FCPUG actually reside in L.A., including Michael Horton.


www.shanerosseditor.com

Listen to THE EDIT BAY Podcast on iTunes
[itunes.apple.com]

Quote
Joey is in Florida. Only three mods in the LOS ANGELES FCPUG actually reside in L.A., including Michael Horton.

yeah, what's up with that? We need more LA mods. Not sure why, but way to many from AU, and Canada and EU and other places none of us have ever heard of like Toronto.

Michael Horton
-------------------

That's cause all the talent isn't just in LA, Michael

Andrew, as good as that sounds, it would be a hell of a cab fare. I'm at EA Sports (Tiburon) Studio in Orlando:

[www.Tiburon.com]

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Seriously...this forum has a sweet cross section of experience (and drinkers) from all over the world. What we need is MORE...like a Swedish Mod, a Russian Mod, a Ukrainian Mod, A Spanish Mod, A French Mod (maybe), an Italian Mod and one from St. Louis to represent the Central Time Zone.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Okay, so a rain check until the next time yer in LA or I'm in Orlando then?


-Andrew