Hourly charges- Off topic?

Hey all-
sorry for the slightly off topic- but important issue I think.

I got into a discussion with a fellow editor on when to have the clock running- and when not to- and I am very curious how other editors feel/work.
The question is "do you charge clients for phone time, invoicing time, generally anything which is legitimately for their project of course, but NOT actually editing?"

I tend to be soft about it myself..5 minute phone call from/ to the client...no charge...but a half hour call to specifically discuss there project/notes, whatever, I do charge, although I'm not rigid about the time and end up charging a bit less than actual time usually...


Thoughts?

Paul

I don't think I've ever billed for a phone call, unless it came during my edit session while I was already "on the clock". I can't see stopping the edit clock to talk to the client who's paying for my day. That's part of the day.

I rarely bill for meetings, either. I don't want my clients to feel like I'm "nickel & diming" them to death with half-hour and hour charges. I more than make up for it with my day rate/hourly rate when I'm actually working.

The only client I billed everything to is the one that looked me in the eye and said, "Make sure you bill me for your time, always".

Same as Debe. I haven't actually charged for consultation, as I usually charge that into the edit, as a package for a job, since it helps run the edit better.



www.strypesinpost.com

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The question is "do you charge clients for phone time, invoicing time, generally anything which is legitimately for their project of course, but NOT actually editing?"

Only lawyers get away with that, or maybe its just my lawyer

"I don't think I've ever billed for a phone call, unless it came during my edit session while I was already "on the clock". I can't see stopping the edit clock to talk to the client who's paying for my day. That's part of the day."

But aren't you then saying you feel like it IS a legitimate charge, but you just don't want to have the client feel nickel and dimed by seeing that specific charge on the invoice? In one case you charge for it, in another you don't?

If I have multiple jobs and Client A wants to have a one hour discussion on the phone, then I'm not doing client B's job, which I would be charging for, so shouldnt that phone time be charged time?

and are we saying that we think this time is legitimate charged time, but we just cant "get away with it"

Btw I'm not trying to incite a riot here, but I'm really curious, and examining how I want to work in the future.

Thanks

Paul

If I'm in a session, I tend to call them back later. If it's urgent, they gotta wait. It's a give and take situation and yes, I've spent some lunches on the phone.



www.strypesinpost.com

I mean if the client that is paying for my day calls me during the edit, I don't stop the clock to take their call. Communicating with the paying client is part of my edit day.

If someone is buying my whole day, then they can use it however they want. If they want to talk to me for an hour, so be it. They are paying for the day. They can use it however they please.

If ANOTHER client calls me during someone else's edit time, I generally do not take the call, unless I have a gut feeling that there is an imminent emergency. Then I promise the paying client that I'll either stop the clock or I'll owe them 10, 15, 20 minutes or however long the other client's call takes. Depends on the client and my relationship with the client.

I will not then bill the other client for that time, however.

debe

IMHO, billing for a phone call is "nickel & dime" unless the phone call is booked as a meeting. Then you would keep minutes on the conversation. So is invoicing. If a client sees that on an invoice, something as menial as that can cost you a returning client because they could think you are "padding the bill". I don't bill for any of that...it's included

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The only client I billed everything to is the one that looked me in the eye and said, "Make sure you bill me for your time, always".

Hey deb,

Send a few of those clients my way, will ya please?

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

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grafixjoe
> Hey deb,
Send a few of those clients my way, will ya please?

Ahh. I would if I could, Joey!

Funny thing is, and I wasn't going to mention this, was that they stopped calling a few months ago, right after I sent them my biggest bill to date. (if you want to call that funny...)

I'm hoping it's mere coincidence, and that they just don't need any extra help. It's an internal corporate communications department with staff. They don't always need to hire out to meet their needs.

We discussed negotiating a "bulk rate" for longer projects during our initial meet-n-greet. The last one was just under the cusp of what we had agreed would be defined as a longer project...so I billed them as we had agreed previously, with no discounts.

Now I'm wondering if I should have dropped the rate. As a professional, I'd hope that if they had an issue with the bill, they'd discuss it with me and try to come to an "arrangement" before writing me off as too expensive...

But the always-worried-for-where-the-next-project-is-coming-from freelancer in me worries that I screwed it all up, and lost them as a client.

Perception can kill your relationship just as fast, if not faster, than blowing a deadline sometimes.

debe

How would you work that on an hourly rate? Or don't you ever work hourly?

And if you don't take that call- and lets say for the sake of argument its a substantial time- say a 1 hour phone call-, when do you return that call? On your own time after work? Herein lies my dilemma- Then I'm taking time away from my family for a non-paid consult. is this just the nature of the beast?

I guess I kinda do what you do already, charge if the clock is running, usually dont if its not. I find myself though questioning when those calls become substantial though. I'm trying to get to work on client A's job, client B calls for 5 min- and it turns into 45 mins ( again I'm working hourly- not daily) I of course stop the clock on client A's job, but do I charge client B. I guess your answer is no- unless I'm already working on B's job and his job clock is already running?

I guess for me too, it depends...

ps- thanks for taking the time to discuss...I hope I'm not getting billed for this....

Paul

"IMHO, billing for a phone call is "nickel & dime" unless the phone call is booked as a meeting"

From this can I surmise then that you DO charge for meetings and Scheduled phone calls? That is more of my current issue actually- Scheduled phone calls.

Paul

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paul kelliher
Then I'm taking time away from my family for a non-paid consult. is this just the nature of the beast?

It is the nature of the beast. When you're a business owner, you don't get paid for every hour you spend working building your business. Only half my time is technically paid for by any/all of my clients. In a good year. If I had employees, probably very little of my time would actually be considered billable if I were running the business and letting my employees do the work. I can't expect to be able to run a successful business and find a way to bill a client for every hour I put in working on my business. When you're a business of one, you can't expect to bill someone for everything you do. It's just not practical.

That's why my rate is my rate. It covers me for when I can't bill clients for my time. It covers my overhead & it covers my non-billable time. It covers my vacations, my paid holidays & my benefits. It covers my new equipment purchases, my continued training and my client-building endeavors.

Bottom line is, (and I say this with all due respect, just to be clear) do you want to own your own business, or do you want someone to pay you for every minute you consider yourself to be working? If you feel that not getting directly paid for your all of your efforts isn't "worth it", then what you really want is an hourly staff job.

Owing a small business isn't a 9-5 job. It never has been.

debe

I agree with everything that you are saying- and have been running a fairly successful 1 man show for 6 years now- the hours are something I understand.

But I still am hearing that we "kinda" charge clients for non- editing, maybe when the clock is already running, maybe for that meeting/phone call when its scheduled... Maybe the wider question is "Is there anything other than in the chair editing that is a legitimate charge/

and I can also challenge myself and say " If I dont dare put it on an invoice, then I shouldn't be charging for it"

The more esoteric question is do I think its a legitimate charge- but just dont want it to show up on an invoice cuz I'll lose the gig?
Or- do I think its a nickel and dime charge, which should never be charged, whether the client would accept it or not

Paul

I think you almost answered your own question there. I don't see it as a hard-and-fast, right-or-wrong thing.

For example, if a client calls asking "how do you prefer your clips to be named?", I wouldn't charge. However, if the client messes something up in the timeline, or doesn't know how to do something in Final Cut Pro, I think it'd be legitimate grounds for charging -- free Final Cut Pro lessons don't come with the territory, especially if we're off the clock.

For me, the important thing is always to be clear when we're charging, to have a clear understanding with the client when there are costs to, say, calling me with 45 minutes' notice rather than booking me ahead of time.


www.derekmok.com

To be honest, it really boils down to your relationship with the client.

Some clients don't honestly care and expect you to charge them for that time. Some clients really really are attached to the budget, and if you're not being physically productive, they don't expect to be charged, especially if those charges make them go over budget.

Some are realistic, some are not. Some you can have a frank conversation about such matters, some you know you can't.

It's also depends on what's considered acceptable in your area. If no one else locally charges for meetings or phone calls and you do charge, then you might see some attrition of your clientele who see themselves as getting a better deal from the other guy. Even if the other guy has a higher rate than you do and costs more overall for the same or similar services. Clients are weird that way. It's perception of value more than actual cost.

The reason you can't seem to get the solid answer you want is there isn't a solid answer here. It is a "go with your gut" thing.

My gut tells me that my rate more than covers me for an hour on the phone here and there. It covers me for an hour on the phone every day of the week, quite honestly. My gut tells me that the two-hour meeting I'm scheduled to have on Thursday about a six-week project will be more than covered in the six weeks of work, if it truly ends up being what the producer says it looks like. I won't worry about charging for this meeting, because I know I'm covered. Double bonus for me if he buys the coffee!!

I don't mean to sound preachy. I'm actually a little under the weather at the moment, and if I sound crankky (with extra emphasis on the second k) that's why.

debe

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I don't mean to sound preachy. I'm actually a little under the weather at the moment, and if I sound crankky (with extra emphasis on the second k) that's why.

I'm telling ya; new shoes! Stops you being crankky in mid stride. It's either that or start drinking.




Michael Horton
-------------------

New shoes!

Always new shoes!!



deb

> Even if the other guy has a higher rate than you do and costs more overall for the same or
> similar services. Clients are weird that way. It's perception of value more than actual cost.

True, true. Of course, if the other guy screws the project up royally, the client will most likely come back to you and your charges, or find another person.

The fact is, you can only go with what you feel is right. Just as some airlines offer food and others don't. If your client's keeping you on the phone for three hours when you're supposed to be cutting another paid project, then you should charge, you should make it clear that you're charging, and if they don't like it, they'll have to look for someone else. You can only bend the price of your commodities -- in this case your talent and time -- so far before your normal prices become useless. If you allow everything to be bartered, everything will be bartered, and then it's down to whether you're willing to accept that. Some are, others not.


www.derekmok.com

I just had a similar issue with my accountant.

In 5 years, I've never gotten bill for talking to her on the phone. We'd had many lengthy conversations on the phone over the years. If I met her in her office, of course I expected to and got bills.

This past spring, we had an hour-long conversation on the phone. She helped talk me though a few things on my QuickBooks accounts that I hadn't been doing "in the accounting style" for years. Things she corrected every year at tax time. Now I know how to enter such things, saving her precious time during her busy season.

I was surprised to get the bill in the mail the next day. Not because I don't value her, and not that I don't value her time. It's just that she had never sent me a bill for a phone call before, and that she didn't mention to me that this would be a billable call.

I paid it, of course, but there's a part of me that's a little put out that she didn't mention that I'd be seeing a bill for that call.

I take it back. I do not charge for phone calls...period. Included in my service. I do not nickel & dime my clients because I wish to keep working with them. Revisions they pay for (after 2)...not phone calls.

When life gives you dilemmas...make dilemmanade.

Hey everyone-

Thanks for for the weigh in. Obviously not a yes or no question and I appreciate the candor. I'll consider all your comments as I move forward.

Paul

the only time i heard of some one charging for a phone call was when they were trying to shake the other person off.

totally annoying director, who talked in vague concepts, and was continually changing their mind,
while only ever being negative bout the work the editor was doing.

called up on a sunday, to give some notes.

editor charged for a 4hr minimum call with double time for sunday!
as you can imagine, that was the last time the director called them at home.


nick

I tend not to charge for phone calls or email communication if it's a quick (i.e. less than 5 minutes) communication. If it involves communication about change requests or other specific project details that I need to follow up on, I will charge. I tend to be pretty lenient on these types of charges, but the time does add up, and the client should expect to be paying for your time (especially if you make that clear). This is how I charge at the agency where I work, as well as on freelance projects. I should also say that when I quote a job to a client, I include some project management/communication time in my estimate.