FCP editing 3D?

Has anyone set up FCP to cut 3D? Is there any video card or 3rd party 'plug-in' or 'hardware device' that might facilitate taking two images simultaneously out of FCP?

This is for a 3D IMAX film company now using a very awkward PC proprietary system - which requires several different format renderings, working only SD etc. etc. A mess. I've proposed they create an 'Apple' pipeline, which makes perfect sense right up to being able to do screenings in 3D.

If there is a way they could screen their edits in 3D they would be on board tomorrow.

To go back to the IMAX footage and final post production they'll use an EDL or keycode, so outputting the final edit for IMAX is not part of the problem.

Any suggestions would be most appreciated...

Ben

Sounds like you're asking two different questions. The first is whether anybody's cut a stereoscopic show with Final Cut, and the second is how to do a stereoscopic screening with Final Cut.

You can look at Stereo 3D Toolbox if you want. I don't know anything about it, so this isn't an endorsement. I'm just passing on the information that it exists:

[www.timdashwood.com]

Final Cut has no built-in stereoscopic support. That's not really surprising; earlier this year Avid announced some stereo support in Media Composer, but from what I understand it's pretty much limited to anaglyph generation, over-under or checkerboard playback.

Point being, stereoscopic editorial is a bit of a solution without a problem right now. See, you can view uncorrected stereoscopic material in stereo if you want ? via anaglyph, stacked polarizers, whatever ? but nobody would want to. Uncorrected stereo material hurts to watch. It literally makes your eyes do painful, unhealthy things. Only after the footage has been corrected shot-for-shot for parallax, vertical alignment and convergence would you want to watch it in stereo.

On Journey, the creative editorial was all done with one eye only. That show was done on Avid, just like it'd been a one-camera shoot, then EDLs were sent into a Scratch system for the 3D conform. There, where shots could be corrected for all the things that send people home for the day with pounding 3D migraines, was where the stereo screenings were done.

Of course, this doesn't apply to shows like Monsters vs. Aliens, which was rendered in stereo and thus avoided all the optical problems that stereo cinematography has. As stereo rigs get better, and more and more monitors come on the market that support checkerboard playback, I wouldn't be surprised to see more demand for stereo support at the creative editorial stage. Maybe in a year or two.

Very interesting ...

I will check out Stereo 3D toolbox. And I will pass on your suggestions to the fellow who has to screen the stuff. As far as I can tell they are using a proprietary system for projection that has no correction for parallax, alignment etc. etc. and it is working enough for them at the editing stage. But it is a complicated rig to use requiring going back and forth between codecs etc. (They are editing with FCP in SD, ouch, and outputting an EDL to the proprietary codec that plays the two streams through two projectors.) I've seen some pretty nice stereo this way. But they can't do color correction or anything for their screenings as they always have to go back to the original proprietary codec - unrecognizable by FCP, or anything else for that matter.

This company has made quite a number of successful 3D IMAX films and they tend to shoot very carefully, with a lot of the usual 3D issues avoided during the shoot. I'm thinking if there was some way to get the two eyes to come out of FCP ...

I'll post anything I do discover.

Thank you most kindly,

Ben

What you described actually sounds like every stereo system I've ever encountered. You do your offline with one camera, then send an EDL to a system that supports left-eye-right-eye, conform there to your offline, and screen it using one of the various schemes for stereo playback. That is, in my limited and worthless experience, the pristine State of the Art? for stereoscopic filmmaking.

Just out of curiosity ? why do you want to view stereo during editorial? Is it just one of those "here's more-or-less what it'll look like someday" things?

I think the stereo screening is mainly because some cuts WORK in 2D but DON'T WORK in 3D. This is more an IMAX issue I believe. As you probably know, cutting in IMAX is a whole different ball of wax. That screen is SO big that one has to be much more careful about overwhelming the audience - at least it was traditionally. And the 3D exacerbates the problem. Sometimes a few frames either way MAKES a 3D cut work better.

That's main reason. But it could also be said that producing an IMAX film often requires screenings-that-impress. They've set up a miniature IMAX screen in their production offices so they can run occasional sequences for the backers (theaters, sponsors) without having to book and rent an IMAX theater. I've seen some lovely 3D in that miniature IMAX screening room. But with the system they have they can't do any color corrections or dissolves etc. etc., which would be sooooo easy to do in FCP.

I'm looking at your 3D Dashwood suggestion ...

Thanks again Jeff,

Ben

Oh sure, that makes sense.

Despite the fact that "3D" movies ? I hate that term because I'm a nerd, so I tend to say "stereoscopic" instead ? have been around in principle for decades, the craft of making serious "3D" movies is quite a new one. We're still figuring out how.

Of course, it remains to be seen whether "3D" is going to become a legitimate and long-standing medium or whether it's just another swing of the pendulum fad. I don't have a dog in that particular hunt, so I won't express an opinion. I will say, though, that I personally don't care for the experience of watching a "3D" movie for a variety of reasons.

Then again, when sync sound was invented there were surely people who said they missed the piano.

I'm with you...

I'm sure it's all going to go to 3D. But, you know, don't we love to watch black and white films. And Buster Keaton's The General is still a work of art. I'm reading T.E. Lawrence's Seven Pillars of Wisdom - a bunch of letters squirreling across a page. I've started to write poetry to counterpoint all the techno nonsense I have to digest every day.

I love playing the piano. I have Logic and keyboards and 10,000 samples, but if I'm not getting paid to do it, I never touch the stuff. I'll play a good piano every single day. Love it.


B

I got to get Tim to demo this at lafcpug. It does look way cool. Its just how do you demo this without a 3D projector?

Michael Horton
-------------------

Anaglyph and red-blue glasses and then also some aspirin.

Quote

I got to get Tim to demo this at lafcpug. It does look way cool. Its just how do you demo this without a 3D projector?

...or cross-eyed viewing - ala "Magic Eye" or Stereograms

Search Youtube for Youtube 3D examples and you will see an option box where you can choose many different 3D View Style: options some that require glasses and the cross-eyed one.







For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

?and then also some aspirin.

You know, it occurs to me that maybe I just have bad eyes.

According to one report I was told about - approximately 10% of the world's population cannot see 3D due to problems like having 1 eye or bad vision...



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

No, I can perceive the effect just fine. But in a very short time, I get the achey-eye thing and prefer to stop. So I personally am very critical of stereoscopic, in no small part because it hurts me.

Ben,

I love the little spit at the end ... right around the time I was finally able to get my eyes crosses properly.

I think my Dad says 14% can't see 3D (even if they have good vision) ... Dad made the first or second 3D IMAX; he certainly made the first 3D 48 fps IMAX, if you don't think THAT wasn't a monster to shoot. Boom! Looked magnificent though.

Tim's stuff looks very intriguing. Thank you mucho Jeff.

14% blimey - I must have heard my statistic from a 3D sales agent



For instant answers to more than one hundred common FCP questions, check out the LAFCPUG FAQ Wiki here : [www.lafcpug.org]

Michael Horton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I got to get Tim to demo this at lafcpug. It does
> look way cool. Its just how do you demo this
> without a 3D projector?

I would happily demo it at a meeting. I'm working on 10+ new features for the next major update and it should all be ready for release in January. LAFCPUG would be a great audience for a sneak peek.

Obviously the best large room projection for 3D would be circularly polarized RealD but we could get by with anaglyph glasses for the purposes of the demonstration. Most hobbyists are using this mode anyway, but we do support almost every other popular output mode (side by side, over/under, interlaced [field sequential and vertical], checkerboard.) We can't do dual-stream output within FCP/Motion because FCP can't support it, however it is possible to output an unsqueezed side by side quicktime and play back in perfect sync across two DVI outputs with quicktime player.

If anyone here is interested in purchasing a license I will get a LAFCPUG specific discount code added to the FxFactory store. In the meantime you can use "DViS3D" for a 10% discount.
The introductory price is $389 but a new price structure will likely be introduced in the new year with a "light" version for hobbyists and a pro version for the pros. If you are interested in the higher-end pro features (unannounced) now would be a good time to buy a license because you will get the full upgrade free of charge.

I've subscribed to this thread so please feel free to ask questions if you have any. Thanks to Michael for bringing the thread to my attention.

Tim

Tim Dashwood

[www.Stereo3DToolbox.com]

"We can't do dual-stream output within FCP/Motion because FCP can't support it, however it is possible to output an unsqueezed side by side quicktime and play back in perfect sync across two DVI outputs with quicktime player."

Hi Tim,

Is there an existing PDF with exact instructions on how to do the above? I've been trying to encourage my brother's tech-team to switch over to an Apple-based pipeline for his 3D IMAX productions. They are mid-stream in the production of at least 3 at the moment, and are justifiably terrified to move out of the system they are currently using - which is awkward, proprietary, and slow. But! They are almost sold. They've been looking at Neo3D and your system as complimentary and are very very willing to move forward. The only block is being able to screen edited sequences. Ideally, they'd love to be able to SEE the 3D while editing (in IMAX the 3D cuts can work or not work in a very unpredictable manner). I'm thinking that if they can export to a Quicktime that they can dual stream to 2 projectors they might still move forward, realizing that FCP outputting two streams is not far off. The Quicktime dual stream would still be much more efficient than what they are using right now.

Any suggestions would be most appreciated ...

Ben

Hi Ben

I don't have a pdf on the process but the solution is straightforward.

Method 1 (resolution dependent self-contained Quicktime pair): Basically create a double wide side by side output from FCP & Stereo3D Toolbox (you can download a 3840x1080 slug here [www.dvinfo.net] and use the "two image wells" option.)
Your mileage will vary depending on your graphics card's ability to render at that resolution. FCP7 works better than FCP6 in this case. If FCP says it can't render at that resolution then switch FxFactory's rendering from graphics card to CPU. This will slow down rendering but will be the only option for systems with low VRAM.

After you export your 3840x1080 side-by-side quicktime just setup the two projectors on a dual DVI Mac and set each display to 1920x1080 resolution. It's best if you have a second graphics card for this (total of 3 displays - 1 as your normal monitor and 2 for the projectors.)
Open the quicktime movie in quicktime player, set it to "actual size" and position it so that each half is on a different projector.

We have a thread going on DV Info Net regarding method 1.
[www.dvinfo.net]


Method 2 (the simple method):
Export two Quicktimes from FCP & Stereo3D Toolbox: your left and your right.
Open each quicktime in quicktime player and position the left one on the left projector and the right on the right one.
For each movie hit CMD+F, then space (to stop playback), then the back button to reset the position at the head of the movie.
When you are ready for playback select "Play All Movies" from the View menu.
Both movies should play at full frame rate and stay in sync on any mac pro with a decent graphics card.

I should probably write a little Applescript for method 2 to make it easy.

Tim Dashwood

[www.Stereo3DToolbox.com]

Tim!!


Somehow I just knew there was a brilliantly simple way to do this. Most wonderful. Most kind of you to write it all out. I'm going to suggest that Jill and Mac (post production head and chief techie) get in direct contact with you. I think they will be truly delighted with your 1,2,3. They are in the middle of two, if not three, 3D IMAX productions, using new hybrid cameras and a proprietary pipeline that was state-of-the-art two years ago, now driving them nuts with its awkwardness. I suspect their only dilemma will be in finding a way to embed the new pipeline without stumbling all over the old one, which has to stay in play as the dailies come in.

Most most appreciated ... thank you ...

Ben

I wrote an Applescript to automate dual-screen playback in Quicktime 7.6 (don't expect this script to work with Quicktime X and Snow Leopard.)

-- STEREOSCOPIC DUAL SCREEN PLAYBACK WITH QUICKTIME
-- Script written by Tim Dashwood Nov 3, 2009
-- Use to open left and right movie files and present to dual projectors connected to separate DVI outputs

set left_clip to (choose file with prompt "Choose the LEFT Movie:"
set right_clip to (choose file with prompt "Choose the RIGHT Movie:"

tell application "QuickTime Player"
activate
set play movie from beginning when opened to 0
open right_clip
open left_clip
present document 1 display 1 -- display 1 is usually the one with the menu bar
present document 2 display 2 -- swap the "1" and "2" if projectors are connected the opposite way
tell (documents 1 thru 2)
pause
rewind
set looping to 1 -- set this to 0 if you don't want movies to loop
set play all frames to 0 -- this should maintain sync between movies
play -- remove the play command if you want to manually start/pause playback with CMD + RETURN key combination.
end tell
end tell

Tim Dashwood

[www.Stereo3DToolbox.com]

Superb!!

Thank you Tim. I'll get it to the gang. They are buried in a current influx of rushes, preoccupied, but say they are going to catch up to implementing this new pipeline next week ... meaning continuing with their tests and research. I'm heading west to film Tibetan Monks and sand mandalas ... but will keep close contact with them, and impress upon them the usefulness of making a connection with you.

Wonderful... very generous of you...

Ben

Hi Tim,

great script. I use your Stereoscopic Toolbox here in Germany too.
There's one thing i need and don't know how to include it into your script.
I need to display side by side quicktimes via dual SDI or DVI stream. Is it possible to modify you script to just open a SbS and then split up the tracks and send them on two different monitors outputs(dual SDIs or DVIs?). Iknow you wrote a script long time ago which combines two quicktimes into a SbS so maybe its just the script backwards?...

Thanks and best,
Klaas

There is another somehow easy option to work with 3D in FCP (and other apps) - as long you got the right monitor for polarized 3D plus the right glasses or make you feel like an idiot with those red blue paper things for anaglyph.
It's named FirstLight from Cineform. You may have a look at their help page: [techblog.cineform.com]

I hate 3D, even though I do 3D (and sometimes 360 degree 3D) on a more or less regular base for R&D since 20 years. And as said: you need Aspirin.
One comment from one of world leaders for stereo rigs: I hope this 3D hype will be over soon.
Or as Panasonic says for their 3D TVs: move away the monitor at least 3-4 meters. If you get headaches or a bad stomach feeling, stop immediately watching.
Maybe your health insurance in a few years will ask you: are you regularly watching 3D content?

Andreas

Hello Ben,

We set up such a system with FCP, Cineform's Neo 3D, AJA Kona 3, and Dual HD projectors about 18 months ago.

We've worked on several IMAX (and other) stereoscopic projects before and since. Some projects were on their way to the IMAX screen, while others were being mastered for d-cinema and/or 3DTV after having already appeared in IMAX.

Unless something was carefully created via CGI (and even then...), it will need to be adjusted (vertical alignment, keystoning, rotational alignment, etc...) and adjusted for depth placement (horizontal alignment).

Neo 3D works very well for this, and requires no rendering to play back. They also claim it's possible to connect directly to a d-cinema (e.g. Real-D) projector and play out directly from the MacPro.

We can view on a 3DTV (side-by-side or fields mode), which is even easier with the newer Kona 3g card, which has HDMI 1.4. There are also a few different flavors of anaglyph which we frequently use as well. However, we prefer to project directly out of FCP. For this, we built our own projector housing, installed a silver screen, and added some polarizing filters.

You know, you can do this without the glasses, right? Check this out








Also, gotta love an inventor who calls himself by his own first name...

Ken Stone told me that some of the 3D T.V. manufacturers are now putting warnings on the sets/boxes not to allow children under 7 to watch them as they can cause brain issues. Sounds weird but toddlers brains are in a developing state so perhaps this makes some sense.
Steve

steve-sharksdelight