5.1 surround question

I've not had to do 5.1 out of FCP before, and I have a few questions which perhaps some other people might be interested in hearing the correct answer to.

OK, so, I set up the sequence settings to 5.1. This gives me my six outputs. 1&2 stereo, 3 and 4 as dual mono with 4 set to off, and 5 & 6 in stereo.

On my timeline, I have nat sound on 1&2, grabs on 3&4, voiceover on 5&6, music on 7&8 and sometimes additional music or FX on 9&10.

I get that I can now assign, say, nat sound and music to the stereo outputs 1&2, all voice to 3, and leave channel 4 turned off as I don't have any sub info to add. But if I want to assign the M&E to 4&5 for the rear speakers, how do I do this correctly? I've already sent it to 1&2. If I add more copies on 11,12,13 and 14, then I'm doubling the levels of the tracks in questions. Is this normal? Am I thinking in the wrong direction here somehow?

My experience in using FCP for 5.1 has all been "pass along" with existing tracks. You have identified one of the big problems with the way Final Cut handles track mapping. While you can easily assign channels to outputs, there is not a good matrix function that allows you to send a single track to multiple channels, or to mix those assignments. For that you need a good mix program. Like, say Soundtrack Pro.

Probably best to lock picture, then send the tracks off to STP to do the 5.1 work. When you are done you can bring the mix back to Final Cut and use the assignments you mentioned.

-Vance

Jude Cotter Wrote:
Am I thinking in the wrong direction here
> somehow?

Yes I think you are. I would not try to do a 5.1 mix in FCP. Do it in an Audio mixing program and bring the 5.1 stems back into FCP for the layback. The track assignments will then depend on the delivery requirements. Film layout would be L C R Ls Rs Lfe.
SMPTE/ITU would be L R C Lfe Ls Rs. Also the M & E would be another complete set of stems. The way you are thinking about it would be considered a Mix - (minus) not a fully filled M & E. Another thing to consider as part of your delivery requirements, is do they need an LtRt or just a Stereo fold down.

Well, it's a very simple motorsport show for a HD channel. I'm not even sure why it needs 5.1 to tell you the truth, but here's the specs :

For the High Definition Dolby E product the audio should consist of 6 discrete channels representing Left / Centre / Right / Left Surround / Right Surround / Low Frequency Effects encoded as a DolbyE audio multiplex

The minimum audio requirement should be a Dolby Surround (Pro Logic II) encoded stereo pair (Lt & Rt)
The videotape machine track assignment shall be:
Track 1 Downmix Lt ( STEREO Lt )
Track 2 Downmix Rt ( STEREO Rt )
Track 3 Audio Multiplex ( Dolby E )
Track 4 Audio Multiplex ( Dolby E )

For current HD videotape systems, it is necessary that the video, audio track 1/2 and Dolby E signals will be recorded such that they are in sync on tape. This requires that the Dolby E multi-channel audio multiplex shall be advanced with respect to video by 1 frame during mastering to compensate for the encoding latency.

If the minimum audio requirement for the HD service of Dolby Surround (Pro Logic II) Lt/Rt is present on machine tracks 1 and 2 (and NO audio multiplex present) then machine tracks 3 and 4 shall carry the stereo M and E of the Dolby Surround (Pro Logic II) signal which is on machine tracks 1 and 2.

The audio multiplex shall potentially carry 8 audio channels plus associated Meta data. When Dolby E is specified as the audio multiplex, then the minimum Metadata to be included in the Dolby E signal shall be: DYNRNG
DIALNORM
AUDIO CODING MODES

Within the audio multiplex the channel assignment shall be as per SMPTE 320M.
Channel 1 Left
Channel 2 Right
Channel 3 Centre
Channel 4 LFE
Channel 5 Left Surround
Channel 6 Right Surround
Channel 7 Lt or Freely Assigned
Channel 8 Rt or Freely Assigned

Broadcasters reserve the right to edit Meta-data for program presentation purposes.
The average program level must substantiality align with the line-up level of ?20dBFs.
Dynamic range should not be excessive.
Correct lip synchronisation shall be maintained at all times.

A lot of that gives me a bit of a headache, so if you wanted to explain it, that would be fabulous. I think you're both right in that it needs to go out to STP or similar then come back as pass through channels - makes a lot more sense. I just thought that since there was 5.1 setup that maybe I could send the current mix right off the timeline.

You think that gives you a headache? If I were to start explaining what it all means and how it works your head would probably explode.
But you'll be happy to know that there is a pice of software that will help you do this if you insist on doing it yourself rather tha handing it off to a professional sound mixer but I think it will cost you a lot more to do it that way (even if you can get it right)
Neyrinck Soundcode Dolby E will work in FCP and will only cost you $4500 USD or you can rent it for a week for $750. Better make it 2 weeks. As you'll probably need to get it again after the Broadcaster sends the show back for fixes.
Just as a side note, your current mix in FCP may sound good to you but unless you are listening in a calibrated room with the correct 5.1 speaker placement and have the necessary equipment to monitor loudness levels, then you can almost guarantee that the mix will get knocked back by QC.

Thanks Frank - I'll look into it. I do deliver to broadcast and pass QC all the time, (more than 350 shows now, I think) so I'm not a complete moron at this. After speaking to the channel over a few weeks we've found that we can actually deliver in plain ol stereo, so I'm not that concerned for this job now, but I'd like more info because for sure this is going to start coming up again. True that this job does not have 5.1 monitoring, and that was another part of my concern - how can I judge the mix, apart from the meters. Seems unlikely that I would be getting it really correct.

I'm even onsite at the SD version of the HD channel station we are shipping to for this job, and no-one here could help me with the specs, so I'm just looking to upgrade my knowledge.

Hey Jude,
Yeah delivering a stereo mix for QC is a lot different to a 5.1 and matrix encoded dolby stereo mix. There are a few different flavors of Dolby which you can read up on here. Just use the drop down menu and select which one you want to read about.
Also here is another link to more links of some good reading on the subject. That should be enough to make your head hurt for a while.
Room calibration

Ah this looks like an excellent, if a painful, future read. Thanks, I think!

Yea, what Frank said. Get the audio house to do it. That or you need Dolby encoders for that.



www.strypesinpost.com

Audio house? lol None of our TV stations even have sound departments anymore. Except ABC, I think.

I had to do this a while back. I'm not overly familiar with the process as it was handled by the audio post house but I remember it involved a guy from Dolby coming in and connecting up a black box that presumably handled the encoding.

My software:
Pro Maintenance Tools - Tools to keep Final Cut Studio, Final Cut Pro X, Avid Media Composer and Adobe Premiere Pro running smoothly and fix problems when they arise
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Have you looked at Surcode?

[www.minnetonkaaudio.com]

Michael Horton
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Ooh. Nice one.