large AVID project into FCP

Hi, All

i have been approached about inheriting a large project that has been cutting in Avid.
its a feature, and they are well into the edit.
i am too rusty on AVID to use it well, so i am looking into what the ramifications of porting to FCP are.

there are 2 prongs to this: 1 the PROJECTS, 2. the MEDIA

MEDIA is DNxHD

i see 3 options:

1. use DNXHD in FCP. is this possible? how stable is it?

2. transcode the DNXHD to Prores
3. re-transcode the original Prores 4x4 to Prores


PROJECTS

i know i can use AutoDuck for this, but i haven't done it before,
and i don't know anyone who has done such a large project.
has anyone out there attempted such a thing?
OR if you have worked on a smaller scale what sort of issues did you encounter?

to make it work for me the minimum i can get by with is:

- the current edit
- the first assembly
- scene bins


any thoughts would be much appreciated!

thanks,
nick

Hi Nick,

Welcome to the perennial issues of porting projects between FCP and Avid. The two NLEs address media and projects very differently, making it a bit of a dance to port between the different NLEs. Thus the general refrain not to shift NLEs after you have started.

1. Avid doesn't care about projects. It only cares about bins. With FCP, the project file is everything.

2. Avid works with its own media architecture and file formats, and FCP doesn't like those too much. And if you use DNxHD in a QT wrapper, you get gamma issues, and the format is not support by FCP's RT Extreme engine, so you need to render everything. If you use Automatic Duck's solution, it gets Avid's DNxHD MXF media into FCP, but it creates QT reference movies to make it work, and I would doubt that it would work well for long projects.

I have only tried using Automatic Duck once with DNxHD. For that, after getting the media into FCP, we media managed and transcoded it to ProRes. I won't suggest it because of the gamma shift when transcoding between DNxHD and ProRes outside of Avid.

One thing you will lose is logging info, because the two NLEs work very differently. If the media originated from tape, the workflow is MUCH easier, as you can export an ALE file, convert that into a batch list for FCP and then batch capture from tape. And for the sequence, you can export an EDL, import that into FCP and re-capture from tape. With tapeless it is a bit of a dance.


My suggestion if there isn't a lot of effects in the edit, get the media linked to a compatible FCP format, then export an AAF of the edit sequence, and send that into FCP via Premiere, which reads AAF and is able to export an FCP7 readable XML.

For the scene bins, create sequences containing media for every scene, and export AAFs, import that into Premiere, and then export an XML into FCP.


From your post, I'm assuming the media came from the Arri Alexa. How was the source media (ProRes 4444?) ingested into the Avid? If they used AMA and then transcoded to DNxHD, you can easily re-link back to the AMA rushes, then export an AAF to Premiere. Then export an XML to FCP, and then transcode the ProRes4444 files to ProRes, and re-link the rushes to the new set of editing media that you have created. Make sure you export a QT file with timecode to double check that the sequence is exactly what was in the cut after the entire process.

Going the Premiere route would mean that your media would be based on first generation rushes, similar to how it would be if you started the cut in FCP.



www.strypesinpost.com

If you've ever worked with AVID, I can't see why you'd avoid it. You should just take this as a paid opportunity to get back to it. I can't see any of these solutions taking less than a day, and including transcoding perhaps multiple days.

Two days of cutting tops and you'll be well in the swing. At this point I cut everything in anything but FCP7. At least cut in premeire, which can use all FCP shortcuts, and use MXF natively, has a 30 day demo and then can be rented monthly.

Sorry just MHO. Your going to have to get off that pot eventually.

I'm inclined to agree with Ethan. I think it will be easier to knock off your Avid rust than it will be to successfully port the project to another NLE.

I started an Avid job after 5yrs of only using FCP and Avid came back to me surprisingly quick. Granted, I spent some time going through tutorials on Lynda.com as a refresher, but after a few days of using Avid it was feeling familiar again.


-Andrew

>At least cut in premeire, which can use all FCP shortcuts, and use MXF natively, has a 30 day
>demo and then can be rented monthly.

Not true. Premiere doesn't use Avid's MXF media. Only After Effects reads it via Automatic Duck and you can't port that project over to PPro.


Otherwise, I agree with these guys. It's quite some fun cutting in Avid.



www.strypesinpost.com

Nick Meyers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> there are 2 prongs to this: 1 the PROJECTS, 2. the
> MEDIA


Three prongs: 1) Sequences (easy), 2) Media (time-consuming) 3) Bins (problematic).

Most likley, the media is synched in Media Composer. That's the really tricky part. I've heard of solutions where people have used Sebsky Tools (EOL) or some kind of ALE into CT workflow. Can't imagine it would be 100% though.

Otherwise, I'm with Ethan. You just got an upgrade. Get ahold of a newish version of Media Composer with the "smart tools". Take advantage of the many online tutorials. Don't look back.





edit: duh 3 comes after 2.

- Justin Barham -

strypes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Not true. Premiere doesn't use Avid's MXF media.
> Only After Effects reads it via Automatic Duck and
> you can't port that project over to PPro.
>


Good point. MXF is open, but there are varieties. Avid uses OP-Atom. Adobe is working on support but it's not there yet. And of course MXF is only a "wrapper".

- Justin Barham -

I agree with the guys that the project is better edited in MC.

But Justin mentioned a very interesting tool which has been out of my radar for a while- Sebsky Tools. It's a tool that lets you convert ALE files to FCP batch lists. Traditionally it lets you capture from your source tapes. It also does certain other things like allows you to add TC and reel name to QT movies based on the ALE file. And I just remembered that QT Change does this bit of QT/ALE trickery too.

[www.videotoolshed.com]

With this you should be able to export the media as ProRes, export bin by bin, export ALEs of each bin, run them through QT change to append the necessary reel name and TC info. Of course, if you can still need something to convert the AAF to FCP7XML and hopefully that will let you re-link without issues, although something in me doubts that the conversion will be 100%.

So yea, I'm with these guys on cutting in MC. It's quite enjoyable, actually.



www.strypesinpost.com

thanks for the ideas, everyone.

the project is a little pressed for time, so is not the project for me to re-learn avid on, i feel.
i feel the editing processes have to be invisible to me from the beginning.

it's starting to look as if the best media option is to transcode the DNxHD direct to PRoRes

Quote
Justin
3) Bins (problematic).
Most likley, the media is synched in Media Composer. That's the really tricky part. I've heard of solutions where people have used Sebsky Tools (EOL) or some kind of ALE into CT workflow. Can't imagine it would be 100% though.

ok, i didn't think that would be tricky.
i mean if picture and audio are linked in Avid, would they not come across as linked in FCP?
what issue should i look out for?

are sequences better than bins?
i could pretty easily create rushes timelines for each scene in Avid, and export AAFs for each.
i'm thinking i'll Use Automatic Duck for this


as it turns out, the rushes had a simple audio sync done during the transcode, and the editor has been working with this.
SOME shots have been synced in AVID.
i am waiting to talk w the original editor and find out more about this.



cheers,
nick

I think what Justin meant was dual system sound material. That stuff would be slightly tricky, as Avid creates subclips. I believe Automatic Duck can handle that.

AAF is mainly used to transport sequences. For bins, it is usually ALEs, and if you go the ALE route and batch export QTs from Avid bins, you may need Sebsky tools or QT change to make sure the meta data like timecode and reel name is carried across. Otherwise your QTs will just be a bunch of clips.

The best route if you ask me, is if the source QT media is already ProRes. That way you can skip the transcoding and just get the translation software (automatic duck/Premiere Pro) to re-link to the QT media via AAF.



www.strypesinpost.com

Nick -

[i feel the editing processes have to be invisible to me from the beginning. ]

I agree. I trained in Avid, I focused on FCP for years but kept returning to Avid for clients and refresh.

There's no reason why you cannot sign on to Lynda.com for the Media Composer 6 Essentials, there's a good gal who did the videos it there. The cost to you is US$25.00 a month! Get going, you'll be up to mastery in no time and this discussion will be moot.

Best, as always,
Loren S. Miller
www.neotrondesign.com
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