Viewing HD on an SD monitor possible?

Is there a card which will convert HD to NTSC (or a function in FCP5) so that, for the moment, I can display it on my CRT Sont monitor. It does have component inputs. I don't want to have to lay out a whole bunch of dough on an Apple display (or whatever) just yet and I am hoping HD monitors will decrease in price over the next 6 months.

Hiawatha DeLorean, Ignoramus Supreme of Mulholland.

The AJA Kona2 capture card has several video outputs (2 SDI and 1 analog component). All of which can be independently set for either HD or SD up/down conversion. If you're using a Sony PVM20L5, you can view it in native HD. Works great over here as our main HD/SD solution.

Otherwise, you'll need an HD to SD converter. I'd check the AJA site to see what they offer as they have the best converter technology out there IMO.

(A) What are you currently using to output HD from your computer?
(B) Which Sony monitor are you using?

Marco Solorio | OneRiver Media
[www.onerivermedia.com]

The Decklink cards will do that great. I'm using the component output in parallel to the HD output which is going to the HDLink to a 23" Cinema Display. Working great.

Graeme



[www.nattress.com] - Plugins for FCP-X

Thank you both Marco and Graeme.

To answer Marco:

I'm using a Sony Trinitron GVM 2020 which is pretty ancient and made in 1992. But terrific picture. I currently have no way of outputting HD but would like to view HD material in SD on my old Sony. Later this year I'll buy an HD monitor -- so I don't want to buy a card which will be expensive and ultimately useless.

Graeme, just to clarify, your component output is being fed to an SD monitor and to your 23" simultaneously? Do you see any dramatic difference in color balance?

Many thanks to you both.

Best

Harry, High Chief Justice Of Moronic Questions.

Harry. wrote:

> I currently have no way of
> outputting HD but would like to view HD material in SD on my
> old Sony.

I'm confused. You have HD material, but you don't have an HD output device and want to view it on your SD monitor? What's the workflow? Sorry if I'm missing something obvious! =)



Marco Solorio | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Media Batch

Well, I'm using a small CRT, 80" 16:9 screen from a DLP projector and LCD over HDLink. It's pretty hard to compre them all - they're all so different.

Graeme



[www.nattress.com] - Plugins for FCP-X

Graeme Nattress wrote:

> The Decklink cards will do that great. I'm using the component
> output in parallel to the HD output which is going to the
> HDLink to a 23" Cinema Display. Working great.

Yeah, the DL stuff works great too. But the caveat... he doesn't want to get an Apple display! ;-)



Marco Solorio | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Media Batch

Graeme Nattress wrote:

> Well, I'm using a small CRT, 80" 16:9 screen from a DLP
> projector and LCD over HDLink. It's pretty hard to compre them
> all - they're all so different.

What are you using the DLP for?

I just got a new DLP on 100" over here for the audio control room for scoring music to picture. I've never wanted to NOT spend so much money on technology before! Personally, I can't stand projection, but the room required it as a fixed screen can't work in that situation. I've got every technology here... DLP projection, plasma, LCD and CRT... I still prefer CRT over all the rest in a heart beat (except for computer displays of course... LCD all the way). Ahhhh, if only LED displays would make it to the market place!!!



Marco Solorio | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Media Batch

I've been unimpressed with all the CRT competition to date too, until we got a 4 foot DLP screen for a set just recently - its a Toshiba and the picture is pretty smick. Mind you, its so huge that you can stand in the props bay thirty metres away and still watch it comfortably.

I don't know if it's rear projection though .. although surely it must be .. it's very thin for it relative size.

Jude Cotter wrote:

> I've been unimpressed with all the CRT competition to date too

With whom are you agreeing with that CRT isn't good stuff? It's a very easy argument that CRT technology is still better for NTSC/PAL viewing until LED comes into play. Projection (i.e., an LCD/DLP projector shooting at a screen from afar) is the worst... luma loss, chroma loss, intensity loss (by leaps and bounds), interpolation issues, and the picture is almost never as sharp as LCD or CRT screens (but that is inherent to something that's being expanded to 100" or whatever).

In terms of CRT competition, there almost is none because Sony is basically the standard. I went through three different JVC "broadcast" monitors about 8 or 9 years ago that ***could not*** calibrate. I never bought JVC ever again. There's Ike, but I'd prefer to just stick with Sony because (A) it not only looks great and (B) other people will be familiar to the picture if they come in for an edit session. I personally think the PVM20L5/1 is the best NTSC/PAL monitor to get if (A) you don't want to spend loads more on an even higher-end Sony and (B) you want something with at least 800 lines, SMPTE-C phosphors, color accuracy, inherent HD/SD support, etc., etc., etc....

So with the latest (and now unbelievably discontinued) Sony PVM-20L5 monitors, you can view HD from a Kona2 with nothing extra needed. Zilch. Sony "replaced" the 20L5 with their LCD Luma series, which are complete garbage. Talk about a huge mistake. That'll guarantee a loss of Sony sales for sure. Someone needs to get fired.



Marco Solorio | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Media Batch

>>With whom are you agreeing with that CRT isn't good stuff?<<

I'm not. I'm saying that I haven't found the competing *formats* like plasma and LCD impressive. I still prefer CRT. But I was impressed with one very large, thin standalone DLP unit. Still not as good as good CRT, but quite nice.

Oops! My bad, Jude! I'll just be quiet now and go sit in the corner!

Sorry folks... please disregard my blissful confusion.

;-)



Marco Solorio | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Media Batch

lol. I know how you feel though, Marco. I had a producer whose client tried to reneg on paying because the production didn't look good on his (chroma set to warp speed 5) plasma screen. His argument was that it was brand new and a PLASMA, and he spent a lot on it, so it must be the producers fault. Um. No.

Jude Cotter wrote:

> His argument was that it was brand new and a PLASMA, and he
> spent a lot on it, so it must be the producers fault. Um. No.

Oh, but it IS your fault since you're not CC'ing on a plasma screen! Ha, just kidding. I feel your pain. It's amazing what consumers get shoved down their throat. I have a plasma screen in the main edit suite, but it's really only for client wow-factor (hey it works!). Although it has come in handy for those times we're editing something specifically for a trade show and it'll only be viewed on plasmas at the shows. Then the client wont get surprises at the show. Other than that, plasmas are crrrrrrrap!



Marco Solorio | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Media Batch

Very many thanks to you all for your informative replies.

I think I get it now.

Best wishes,


Harry

Marco,

what exactly is your read on the Luma series? Could you please elaborate? I've been seriously considering one as a) I need a new monitor and b) was thinking the Luma was one of the few multiformat solutions that could be of interest, although an LCD.

Clay

DLP is for general viewing, movies, seeing how effects work on the big screen for my scaling R&D, things like that. I try to use a multitude of display technologies for watching my algorithms to make sure they don't clash.

I must admit, that I used to love CRTs, but I'm really going off them. I keep seeing all their geometry problems, flaring highlights etc, and for HD, they just look soft and make everything look pretty, which for what I'm doing, is pretty useless - I need to see the warts!

But nobody is making CRTs anymore. Sony have a stockpile for their high end customers.

I asked BMD about the LCD quality, and they told me about a top colourist who came to their Singapore facility and calibrated a Cinema Display (yes, I know you like the Dells, and you could do this with them too) and HDLink next to their HD CRT monitor, and he would have been happy to colour correct on either of them - he had them matching that good. Or so I'm told.

One thing is for certain, there's still no one perfect way to view things, but all the display technologies seem to be getting better and better all the time, apart from CRTs, which are practicaly dead.

Graeme



[www.nattress.com] - Plugins for FCP-X

I must admit that I also detest plasma displays. They seem to be the worst of the bunch for picture qualilty, and they completely exaggerate any artifacts in the signal and add their own on top. Ouch.

Graeme



[www.nattress.com] - Plugins for FCP-X

ClayC wrote:

> what exactly is your read on the Luma series? Could you please
> elaborate? I've been seriously considering one as a) I need a
> new monitor and b) was thinking the Luma was one of the few
> multiformat solutions that could be of interest, although an
> LCD.

Step 1... turn the other way and run with your wallet! No but really, these things are nothing great at all. Like most LCD screens, it suffers from black level issues, interpolation issues and pixel-to-pixel inconsistencies. I take it you didn't have a chance to go to NAB and see them for yourself. You wouldn't believe the grumbling on the expo floor on how bad these things looked, both on and off the Sony pavilion. It's a very over-priced LCD display, plain and simple.

There are still plenty of new PVM20L5/1 monitors out there for sale. I'd look into that first. Or rather... anything but the Luma displays!



Marco Solorio | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Media Batch

Graeme Nattress wrote:

> DLP is for general viewing, movies, seeing how effects work on
> the big screen for my scaling R&D, things like that. I try to
> use a multitude of display technologies for watching my
> algorithms to make sure they don't clash.

And you do have a lot of algorithms to watch!!!

I do find it interesting to view things on different displays, be it CRT, plasma and DLP. Such differences! But in my workflow, the CRT is the decisive end-all victor.

> I must admit, that I used to love CRTs, but I'm really going
> off them. I keep seeing all their geometry problems, flaring
> highlights etc, and for HD, they just look soft and make
> everything look pretty, which for what I'm doing, is pretty
> useless - I need to see the warts!

Well, there is no question in my mind that a 1:1 pixel HD display (sans any interpolation) will definitely be much sharper than a CRT. But it's the inconsistency in LCD that kills it for me. I just need to make sure things are color correct in my workflow and the CRT is the most accurate tool for me to accomplish that.

> But nobody is making CRTs anymore. Sony have a stockpile for
> their high end customers.

I'd guess this is true for their $30k and $60k CRTs, but the PVM line is still out there. I'd wager there may even be some new BVMs out there too.

> I asked BMD about the LCD quality, and they told me about a top
> colourist who came to their Singapore facility and calibrated a
> Cinema Display (yes, I know you like the Dells, and you could
> do this with them too) and HDLink next to their HD CRT monitor,
> and he would have been happy to colour correct on either of
> them - he had them matching that good. Or so I'm told.

Preface: Besides a lot of AJA gear and some Aurora gear I use here, I also have a lot of DeckLink cards and love all of them. Grant & Co. are great guys. But BMD sells the HDLink!!! Of course they're going to say it looks just as good! I can't blame them for saying this, but there's no way, no matter how well calibrated an LCD screen is, will it look as good as a CRT in terms of luma/chroma accuracy. The blacks *always* have light going through them. The top left corner of the screen never looks quite the same as the bottom right corner (random example). But the sharpness looks great! =)

> One thing is for certain, there's still no one perfect way to
> view things, but all the display technologies seem to be
> getting better and better all the time, apart from CRTs, which
> are practicaly dead.

Yes, I agree. I think when LED technology finally comes out, this will be the end-all solution for both color accuracy and sharpness detail. Although it may never scale as well as CRT can from SD to HD... I think fixed pixels will always suffer a little when not displaying in their native rez. But this would be moot if everything was being done in HD at that point anyway.



Marco Solorio | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Media Batch

Graeme Nattress wrote:

> I must admit that I also detest plasma displays. They seem to
> be the worst of the bunch for picture qualilty, and they
> completely exaggerate any artifacts in the signal and add their
> own on top. Ouch.

Yes, this is very true. It amazes me how much extra garbage there is, especially banding. They always have this inherent banding when the source has none or much less. But man does it make the edit suite sure look cool!!!

:-p



Marco Solorio | OneRiver Media | ORM Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Media Batch

Yes, blacks are not the best on LCD, but blacks on CRT suffer when there's an abundance of highlights on the screen as they bleed over. I guess what I'm getting at is that all monitoring technologies have their weak points - you've just got to use what is best for the purpose.

As for the manufacture of CRTs - A Sony manager told me they are not making any more at all. Any in the supply chain and their stockpile ( they wouldn't say how big it is) are the last. No tubes are being currently manufactured at all. And it's not just Sony - it's practically everyone.

Yes, the LED illumination of LCD certainly sounds like a way forward, as do some of the other funkier technologies around. Can't wait to see how they progress.

And yes, the banding on Plasma is terrible, especially in the shadows - yuck!

Graeme



[www.nattress.com] - Plugins for FCP-X