R U as sick and tired of this as I am?

FCP choking on time code errors that are not even there? I'm so sick of seeing ERROR on some of my batch captchures I could burry my size 14s in the side of this mac. I take the same exact tape and try to capture it in Adobe Premiere Pro on my Dell, and it captures just fine with no errors. I'm not trying to complain or say one app is better than another, because I really like FCPHD . . but it's the year 2005 man . . you'd think by now they would have a stronger capture system that could go through any time code discrepencies, especially when there are none : )

If anybody here has any pull with Apple tell them to be the first company that creates a program that can capture through any discrepencies on a tape. I mean it's just digital conversions, it should be able to bypass something physical on a tape. And what I really hate is when some footage does get captured, but then in side the program it says that dropped frames have been detected and the whole program freezes up. WHY DOES A PHYSICAL drop frame get captured in a new image in the program?

Cant help unless you give us more info such as what deck, media, settings, OS, version FCP et

mike



Michael Horton
-------------------

<<< it should be able to bypass something physical on a tape.>>>

It's not the tape.

It's never the tape.

You are doing something that prevents the machine from going fast enough to capture everything coming down the FireWire cable.

We'll figure out what that something is as soon as you tell us about your machine.

Koz

Any of them. Earler versions of FCP would lock up just like this version of FCPHD I have on the computer now. I think one of the problems might be the cameras?? That's all i can think of. We're requesting from council for a budget for more equipment. We're going to buy some DV decks so we can stop having to use our cameras to capture from. Hopefully that will solve some of the issues. I'm using all the latest *STUFF* and all my programs are updated. The newest mac too. Well, I'm not using FCPHD 5 , still using 4.5.

Thanks and sorry for ranting, just an unusual stressful day today,
Adam

Machine Model: Power Mac G5
CPU Type: PowerPC G5 (3.0)
Number Of CPUs: 2
CPU Speed: 2.5 GHz
L2 Cache (per CPU): 512 KB
Memory: 1.5 GB
Bus Speed: 1.25 GHz
FCPHD 4.5

And I'm capturing my video to an external scsi drive

Fire wire issues have been brought up before. Sometimes I think it's legitimate , but sometimes it seems like that's a skape goat that people use if a problem can't be figured out.

But as stated before I'm capturing from the DV camera and hopefully that's the issue. Crossing my fingers that this type of thing will not happen as much if we get our budget approved and get some DV decks.

Thanks,
Adam

<<<Thanks and sorry for ranting, just an unusual stressful day today>>>

If you're in California, just sit cross-legged on the floor and recite your montra.

Ommmmmmmmmmm..

There. Isn't that better?

If you're in Montana, you're on your own.

We still need to know about your machine. Are you consistantly trying to capture to the third of four daisy-chained FireWire drives? That has never worked for anybody I know and it doesn't work for you, either.

Do you capture through an AJA I/O to a FireWire drive? I'm here to tell you that doesn't work at all.

etc.

Koz

OOps. Cross postings.

Sorry. This is me reading your stuff.

Koz

<<<Fire wire issues have been brought up before. >>>

It is my personal favorite. We follow Apple's recommendations for disk drives and on three different machines, have zero problems.

<<<And I'm capturing my video to an external scsi drive>>>

Has it ever worked?

<<<I'm capturing from the DV camera and hopefully that's the issue.>>>

Almost certainly not, although don't tell anybody I said so. If you can capture to a Premiere deck reliably with no troubles, then the FCP machine may have problems.

Can you play back to tape with no troubles (I'm betting no)?

Have you tried to capture from your mom's camcorder instead of yours? Have you changed FireWire cables?

You know the bit of no drive visible to a video system should be over 90% full? **Any** drive.

Just to indulge my drive fetish for a second, how big is your System drive and how full is it?

There are hardware resets that can be pressed into service, but we'lltake this a little at a time.

Koz

> Do you capture through an AJA I/O to a FireWire drive? I'm here to tell you
> that doesn't work at all.

Really? I assisted on a feature documentary that used an AJA I/O box to hook up a Sony Betacam deck to FCP, and at the same time used a FireWire Satamax 2TB array as the capture scratch. No problems. However, ProMax did install a separate FireWire card (three extra ports) in the machine and told us to plug the Satamax into the G5's built-in port, and the DV deck/AJA FireWire cable into the card. Is that what you're referring to, Greg?

Adam, you've already tried disabling all those "abort on capture" features?

Capturing on cameras is also never a great thing, it's true. They can do this function, but not well -- not what they were built for, and detrimental to the lifespan and operation of the camera.

> It's not the tape.
> It's never the tape.

I'd like to suggest this is true only most of the time. I have had perfectly functional DSR-11/FCP4.5 combos have issues (usually "bad data" only with unique tapes. Maybe the camera had a problem that ended up on the tape, but I can also say that tapes shot with the same cameraman and same camera didn't always have these issues. Although I would definitely agree: Dropped frames are often a hardware problem.

<<<Is that what you're referring to, Greg?>>>

Yes. Most people conveniently leave off the $80 FireWire card that is required to get that to work.


<<< plug the Satamax into the G5's built-in port, and the DV deck/AJA FireWire cable into the card.>>>

That is exactly the successful configuration here although I'll swap drives with you.

<<<usually "bad data">>>

Exactly. You always have other troubles *with* dropped frames if it's the camera.

I'm on the edge of my seat to find out whether this configuration has ever worked. Adam needs to hurry up. My knees are falling asleep.

Koz

That's pretty funny about the California and Montana thing : ) Thanks for the laugh. The system is set up properly , and the external drives are made for capturing the video alone. The vendor has been out here 3 times and every time he rechecks his checkings. And my co worker is a long time Mac user (I'm new to it), and he said it's all set up properly too.

At the moment I'm just going straight into my tower via fire wire (through the front of it).

I've capture all the video now though. I just trashed prefs and user data . . turned the computer off . . went to lunch, came back and captured the video just fine , but these problems are not new problems, they happen all the time.

I posted all my system specs earlier in this thread : ) Look at one of my posts and you'll see them . . were those the ones you were talking about?

Thanks,
Adam

Koz Asked:
how big is your System drive and how full is it?
There are hardware resets that can be pressed into service, but we'lltake this a little at a time.

Koz
======

Mac HD = 149.92 GB , with 77.68 GB available (I never capture to this drive)

Internal HD = 186.19 GB , with 160.35 GB still available

External Drives:

First SEAGATE

Capacity: 136.73 GB
Manufacturer: SEAGATE
RAID Drive: Yes

Second Seagate:

Capacity: 136.73 GB
Manufacturer: SEAGATE
RAID Drive: Yes

And those drives are linked together:

As I posted in the 6th post down:

Machine Model: Power Mac G5
CPU Type: PowerPC G5 (3.0)
Number Of CPUs: 2
CPU Speed: 2.5 GHz
L2 Cache (per CPU): 512 KB
Memory: 1.5 GB
Bus Speed: 1.25 GHz
FCPHD 4.5

Adam wrote:


> At the moment I'm just going straight into my tower via fire
> wire (through the front of it).

That may be the problem. Dont use the front port. Seems to be problematic with many people.



Michael Horton
-------------------

People-people!

Save yourself some major grief and stop trying to capture to Firewire drives.

Get a Life! Use real internal or external RAID (SCSI-SATA) for capture.

I don't care how many people feign - It works for me! - It still is problematic and to blame Apple for this is pure hogwash.

If you want a "real" professional editing system - then stop trying to go on the cheapie by using Firewire for capture.

I'll quote Adam on the 6th post down:

"And I'm capturing my video to an external scsi drive".

Not sure where FW fits into this, but everybody else sure keeps bringing it up.

Scott

"to blame Apple for this is pure hogwash."

Amen.

Cameras are FW 100 devices. Hook yours up and investigate under "About this Mac" and see for yourself. A bus slows to the slowest thing on the bus. All fw outputs on a stock machine are on the same bus.

That ain't Apple's fault

Your problem's with your system, or with the tape, not with Apple. If you're having trouble with SCSI capture - what OS are you running? Tiger has several reported SCSI problems. What controller card are you using for the external scsi?

What does your raid utility tell you disk throughput is?

Finally - to help troubleshoot - borrow a real deck. Camera's can introduce a host of ugly little problems when you go cheap and try to use them as decks instead.

Ian

Not sure if this applies, but

DV Start/Stop Detect

[www.digitalvideoediting.com]

Hope that helps....

"If you want a "real" professional editing system - then stop trying to go on the cheapie by using Firewire for capture."

I use a couple of d2's raided, and a couple of maxtors chained in for good measure and dv projects, an aja i/o, a FW card and a 17" powerbook. It works just fine for at least 18 months or so-- last time I checked I was "really" doing 10 bit uncompressed out to betacam.

Just for the record, I think it's pretty professional. I even fit the whole rig in carry on and take it on the road.

<<<At the moment I'm just going straight into my tower via fire wire (through the front of it).>>>

Just to beat this completely to death. You have a SCSI board in your machine and one or two really heavy SCSI cables going to the two drives? Or one heavy cable going to a scsi enclosure with both drives in it?

Is there anything common or magic about the first time it fails in each case? I understand very clearly how much fun this is. Erratic problems are a real joy.

When it starts to act up, can you capture successfully to the internal, non-system drive? This is the idea of isolating different parts of the machine to see what's what.

We had a SCSI array on one of our machines once and I can't remember how this works: Can you "disconnect" or demount the SCSI drives when this happens, and then capture to the internal, second drive? Just enough to insure that it works, not to do a show that way. Our SCSIs tended to be binary. When they worked they were perfect, when they didn't they were complete piles of.......

Can you try to capture using the rear connections and on your mom's camcorder?

Koz

First, make sure your capture settings are correct. Specifically, the device control. Next, try a different tape that's known to work. Last, dump your prefs and try again.



- Justin Barham -

My 2¢ (plink-plink):

If you're gonna capture to FW, DON'T use the port on the front... use a FW800 drive and capture through the REAR FW800 port.

I capture broken TC stuff all the time (to an internal hardware UltraATA RAID "0" Array) and none of it has anything to do with the tape. You just tell FCP to keep capturing through timecode breaks.

- Joey

I dont like to sound like a little crybaby either but i have never ever worked with a program that has as many bugs and other issues as FCP.
The dropped timecode issue is extremely disturbing and I get it to and I'm capturing straight to my hard drive and I use a Dual G5 etc.

When the company I am working for adapted FCp instead of AVID we have to add an extra day at least to every week of editing just to sort through all the buigs and crashes and other porblems that this software has.

It is about as reliable as a crack addicted shizofrenic on steroids.
But its cheap and it always does the job eventually.

If it wasn't for this forum our business would have gone bancrupt three times over from clients dropping us when we cant deliver on time.

So thanks guys

<<It is about as reliable as a crack addicted shizofrenic on steroids.>>

Funny. But come now.



- Justin Barham -

"I dont like to sound like a little crybaby either but i have never ever worked with a program that has as many bugs and other issues as FCP."

You should have been around when Avid v5 was around. And v10.

"The dropped timecode issue is extremely disturbing and I get it to and I'm capturing straight to my hard drive and I use a Dual G5 etc."

NEVER capture straight to your system drive...if that is what you are saying. Always a separate media drive. FW drives for for lots of people (me included) even though it isn't supported nor recommended by Apple.

If you need FCP for heavy work...make sure to get a good, solid external SCSI RAID array.

""but i have never ever worked with a program that has as many bugs and other issues as FCP""

I am wondering what BUGS and OTHER ISSUES you are referring to?

There are things about any software program that we might not like, but bugs are typically things that don't work the same every time.

Perhaps the differences in the way Avid works is confusing? Many people coming from AVID are used to paying a handsome price for a turnkey system, but FCP editors are constantly building up their basic MAC to do the work they want it to.

I work with people who keep saying , "this software has bugs when I___" but when I show them the right way to do it! Well, it changes everything. You can't expect to do everything the same in FCP as you did in AVID.

And just jumping from one NLE to the other without training is a recipe for disaster.

People saying not to use the front port sort of irritates me with Apple. They put it there to be used, and now every one is saying it's unreliable. So why would APPLE even put it there or hype it? Why can't Apple get it to work properly the way they advertise it to, instead of causing their customers to have to say, "Well don't use the front FW because it bugs out, use the back port"

My desk in the office is set up to where I can't reach the back of the computer that easy. And when I switch from Beta to DV that would be a real pain when I have to change fire wire cables.

KOZ asked:

Just to beat this completely to death. You have a SCSI board in your machine and one or two really heavy SCSI cables going to the two drives? Or one heavy cable going to a scsi enclosure with both drives in it?

Adam:
One external SCSI box, one SCSI cable running to the Mac.

KOZ:
When it starts to act up, can you capture successfully to the internal, non-system drive? This is the idea of isolating different parts of the machine to see what's what.

Adam:
Yes and No. It's complicated to explain in text. The vendor has been here a few times on this. When we had problems with the SCSI drive, we did capture to the Internal Drive (Not Mac HD) and the video captured fine. But he did his vendor technical stuff (IM TOTALLY NOT TECHNICAL) and fixed everything. It worked perfect for about 2 weeks then problems came back like mold. Now my "NOW" capture NEVER works under any situation, no matter how many combinations I try. My vendor can't figure it out, and the problem is even stumping AJA. The deal with the time code is just annoying. I've called people at Apple and they admit that FCP has a problem with the most minor glitches on a tape, that other programs might not have a problem with and tell me to just switch cameras . Perfect answer for a customer that does not have another camera : ) I'm lucky though, none of this stuff is mine and the place I work at has 2 DV cameras.


Koz:
Can you "disconnect" or demount the SCSI drives when this happens, and then capture to the internal, second drive?

Adam:
Again, you'd have to be here. We've done so many combos that I've lost track now. At one point when we thought it might be the SCSI card we had the whole thing disconnected , even the SCSI card pulled out. And started to capture to the Internal Drives. This was when we were having the "NOW" capture problems . . (which we are still having). Something happened and we figured out it was not a problem with the SCSI card so we plugged it back in and started batch capturing again to the SCSI drives.

Now . . the "NOW" capture is still FUBAR , but the log and batch capture works perfect (hope I don't jinx the computer by typing that). But as stated in the beginning of this thread it chokes too many times on time code errors, or dropped frames that are not even there.

KOZ:
Can you try to capture using the rear connections and on your mom's camcorder?

Adam:
DONT YOU TALK ABOUT MY MAMA ! ! ! : ) Just kidding. If you mean just a simple camcorder . . the office does not have any of those around. There is only 1 GL1 , and 1 Beta SP cam. I use my JVC 300U many times. I think the camera might be an issue sometimes. Because when problems happen I switch from my camera to the office GL1 and SOMETIMES the video will capture fine.

Adam,

Try your best to stop using a camera as a capture device. I have personal experience with the GL-1 as a capture device. I love the camera, but it does crap work as a capture device -- can't use Edit to Tape, flawed timecode (both write and read), sometimes becomes "invisible" to the FireWire, etc. Whereas I've been using a Sony DSR-11 for over a year on my own system, and several years before that on public stations, and they've been pretty stable.

A proper editing system needs a video deck, even better if you have several.

Adam -
The Cannon cameras require use of Firewire basic control set. Sony and Pana cameras use regular firewire. Please ensure you are switching back and forth as needed.

Johan -
A system that isn't working as expected is never comfortable. But the demonstrable fact is that many many of us are editing daily with stable, predictable systems. So it's you - not the software.

I'll grant your point that there are some hardware / software combinations simply don't work. If you are having a problem, you need to test EVERYTHING. The process of ferreting out what the problem is can be less than amusing. But if you systematically poke away, you'll find the problem.

Folks - a general work flow suggestion - Use a deck and log & capture. To anthropomorphize a bit - FCP rewards this over bulk capturing a tape. It makes media management easier, it prevents a number of DV induced audio sync errors, it makes lists more accurate, and it provides far better project organization and library use of the tape in subsequent productions.

Shane -
I recall the horrors of release Avid 7.0 - shiver. That one bit us hard. We lost a few big project files to that one.

Then going back further - remember the CMX upgrade ( early 3400 I think) that disabled all Sony I-squared's? We had a bulk tape up on a 1200 and it sent one reel into FF and the other into REW mid reel. That was fun.

And I recall the DPE 5000 that we had to turn a floor fan onto and off of to keep the chroma phase from walking as the crystal warmed up. This on a $500,000 machine. It was assigned to the tape op for edit 1 to direct the floor fan.

Anyone else remember H and SC phasing the house every AM and prying it would hold till lunch?

Ian
Looking at gray hairs this AM