Nested timeline

I'm here with clients who've cleverly prepared their feature by nesting all the scenes in groups, with related audio-- many tracks of each-- and when we load the timeline we go "Out of memory."

So here's the question, if everything is un-nested, are we going to solve the problem?

- Loren
Today's FCP 5 keytip:
Do a virtual Audio Mixdown to lighten playback load with Command-Option-R!

The FCP HD KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central
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Just out of curiosity, what are the specs of the system that's giving you this problem? RAM, drives & drive space (all drives), OS, computer, FCP version. I don't have the answer to your specific question, but it's always good to get a sense of where the limits lie. Was this project created on one computer, then has the problem when opened on a different computer? If so, what are the specs of the original system?

Scott

Hi, Scott-

The project was orignated on a dual 1.25 desktop G4 with 2GB RAM, barely loaded, barely useable without SBBOD appearing after ecah trim, according to clients. I had them break the feature into five acts. Those loaded rapidly.

But on my Dual 800, 1GB RAM I get Out of Memory message in the Canvas -- even for one or two acts of about a half hour each.

Then I noticed clients had nested every scene, and THEN had performed trims on the nests-- these of course don't work the way trimming within ripples the nest. Trimming the nest shell does not trim the contents. They didn't know that. These are very busy acts, and when you step into a typical nest- only a fragment of the act-- you see stacked video tracks 12 high, and audio 20 tracks deep. My feeling was these are better behaved "in the open."

I've assigned them to denest the entire feature before we start. I don't know if that wll helkp on my machine or not, so they may bring theirs! Quite an interesting problem, so thought I'd share it and get some deeper wisdom of nest behavior.

As far as I know, nests are useful for tracking renders, compressing stacks of video (usually FX sections) and for repeated use sequences. Has anyone taken scene-by-scene segments of a timeline and nested each? I don't use them much for anything except a single nest over the enture timeline for timecode burnin, 16:9 masking and the like. This was extraordinary.

- Loren
Today's FCP 5 keytip:
Do a virtual Audio Mixdown to lighten playback load with Command-Option-R!

The FCP HD KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central
www.neotrondesign.com

Loren,

You're giving me a headache! I think your suspicions are correct about the influence of the mega-nests on system resources. I wonder whether trimming the nests is introducing part of the problems. It sure makes coming along later a nightmare. Are you getting paid by the hour?

I've found nesting to be very useful in the right place, but one must be discriminating. I'm not sure simple "denesting" will be so simple, since they further edited the nests. Sorry I don't have anything more useful to offer.

Scott

[I'm not sure simple "denesting" will be so simple, since they further edited the nests.]

That's right on the button, and both my clients and I came to that realization, but they also realized if they didn;t do it now it could be terrible for audio design, vision engineering, online conform etc. So they're biting the bullet; they must de-nest, and then conform the "open" timeline to their nested cut.
Then we can proceed with my consult edit.

Seems lke every feature client brings something new and interesting.

Oh, well, that's showbiz!

- Loren
Today's FCP 5 keytip:
Do a virtual Audio Mixdown to lighten playback load with Command-Option-R!

The FCP HD KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central
www.neotrondesign.com

loren,

here's how you de-nest:

open the trimmed nest from the timeline into the viewer.
option double click, select and hit return, or simplest: just drag it.

Apple U to make a sub clip.
yes that;s right.
this "Sub Nest" is now trimmed to just the part used in the timeline sction.

Apple drag it back to the timeline get the contents.

if there are many trimmed sections from hte one nest in a row, you can build up a few of the subnests.
in the browser they will be called "sewunce name subclip1, sequnce name subclip2 etc ,or something like that.
you can then apple drag the lot
(trick: lasso all but one in hte browser, hold aple drag from hte unselected one... you'll see)

nick

Geez, I better pass that on pronto, this is unobvious.

[(trick: lasso all but one in hte browser, hold aple drag from hte
unselected one... you'll see)]

Odd. Thanks, Nick!

- Loren
Today's FCP 5 keytip:
Do a virtual Audio Mixdown to lighten playback load with Command-Option-R!

The FCP HD KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central
www.neotrondesign.com

AGH! Nick:

[this "Sub Nest" is now trimmed to just the part used in the timeline sction.]

This IS NOT happening! When I Command-Drag out, I get ALL the children! This is what my clients are dealing with now. Then they have to re-create the trim they made to the parents on the children.

This is the newest FCP GOTCHA! in my book:

Never EVER cut into a nest! It only duplicates the contents! Step in, edit, delete, trim, whatever, then step OUT! It'll update (or you'll help it with Telly's Opacity up-down refresh or turn the lights on and off or whatever). Nests are unfriendly for trimming-- too many deleterious side effects. They're just excellent for containing.

if this helps some crew dodge a bullet, then we've done our job.

- Loren
Today's FCP 5 keytip:

Do a virtual Audio Mixdown to lighten playback load with Command-Option-R!

The FCP HD KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central
www.neotrondesign.com

Loren wailed, "Never EVER cut into a nest!"

I can see how internal cuts to a nest could cause trouble, but I occasionaly trim the ends when I assemble nested sequences into a final sequence so I can drop a transition onto them (since a nest by nature has no handles). Do you think that's a recipe for disaster too?

Scott

[I can see how internal cuts to a nest could cause trouble]

I think you know what I'm talking about but just to be clear, by "internal" you mean blading between the start and finish of a nest as though slicing a clip, right? You don't mean stepping into a nest to edit the children, which is fully-supported and almost always ripple-updates when you step out-- except when it doesn't? ;-)

I checked with Brian Meaney on it. Such a cut in the nest parent apparently *duplicates* the content inside, each time.

Holy crow eggs! This is like the Sorcerer's Apprentice scene in FANTASIA. No wonder this particular project gets Out of Memory messages. It is certainly an extreme case of nesting and editing --be warned!

[I occasionaly trim the ends when I assemble nested sequences into a final sequence so I can drop a transition onto them (since a nest by nature has no handles). Do you think that's a recipe for disaster too?]

No, that's different; I've done it myself plenty of times. You're not duplicating anything when you trim the ends. Just don't expect the innards to trim in, they don't.

Try this yourself and step into each sliced segment. It's not an illusion-- you'll see the same full length of content you first nested, in each subsection. Now, in my ignorance and that of my hard-working clients, we expect to see *half* the content, not a duplication of everything-- in each nest section. This is unexpected behavior, even if it makes sense on some deep programming level.

I have to say, looking up nesting, I was disappointed in my big expensive Peachpit ProApp training books, including advanced editions and chapters -- none of them explore realworld issues like this, only fun and positive nesting procedures, which of course always work. I would like to see more real-woorld cautions and clarifications in these otherwise pro tomes.

- Loren
Today's FCP 5 keytip:
Do a virtual Audio Mixdown to lighten playback load with Command-Option-R!

The FCP HD KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central
www.neotrondesign.com

"AGH! Nick:

[this "Sub Nest" is now trimmed to just the part used in the timeline sction.]

This IS NOT happening! When I Command-Drag out, I get ALL the children! This is what my clients are dealing with now. Then they have to re-create the trim they made to the parents on the children."

this is weird.

it's always worked for me
it's the same for both of you?
i'll have to look into it later tonight.
what version FCP are you all using?


nick

FCP 4.5 for me. It certainly brings the children out to play, but they're not trimmed to the length of the cut nest.

Loren -
{... just to be clear, by "internal" you mean blading between the start and finish of a nest as though slicing a clip, right?}

Yes, that is what I mean - cutting a chunk out of the middle of that nice, blank, unthumbnailed "clip" that is a nest. It has never occurred to me to do such a thing, and I'm glad of that! Your client's workflow highlights the danger of unsupervised self-taught FCP on a large project.

Nick -
{it's always worked for me
it's the same for both of you?}

Not for me, I haven't tried it (and hope to never need to). I'm using 3.04.

Scott

Ah. The good old days, when you couldn't remap your keys or play back insane effect stacks automatically scaled to your prcoessor power, or cut into your nes-- NO! NO! Yahhhh

- Loren
Today's FCP 5 keytip:
Do a virtual Audio Mixdown to lighten playback load with Command-Option-R!

The FCP HD KeyGuide?: your power placemat.
Now available at KeyGuide Central
www.neotrondesign.com