Order to learn programs

Hello all! This is my first post here and I will be attending my first LAFCPUG meeting later this month as long as I can leave work early.

I just set up a new editing system and bought FC Studio. I already am pretty familiar with FCP, but it has been a few years since I've used it (FCP3). I ordered some Apple Pro Training Series books to teach myself all the software. The Soundtrack book arrived first so I already went through that. Does this sound like the right order to learn everything else?

Final Cut Pro HD: Editing Professional Video
Advanced Editing and Finishing Techniques in FCP HD
Getting Started with Motion
Motion: Revolutionary Motion Graphics
DVD Studio Pro 3

I also have the following on order and plan on going through these when they are released and arrive to learn all the new features (and then some):

Getting Started with Final Cut Studio
Final Cut Pro 5
Advanced Editing Techniques in FCP 5
Advanced Color Correction and Effects in FCP 5
Optimizing Your Final Cut Pro System
Soundtrack Pro
Encyclopedia of Visual Effects

There doesn't seem to be an APTS book for Motion 2 or DVDSP 4 yet. Does anyone have any books they would suggest for those apps?

How does the order I plan on learning these look?

After I've learned these and feel comfortable with them I would like to advance into more compositing and graphics. If I want to learn Maya and Shake, can anyone suggest the order for those?

Thanks for the advice!

You give me a headache.

That's too much reading. Spend more time doing. Read for fun. Ursula Legiun's "Changing Planes" comes to mind. Spend some time with a flaxen haired maid of maize.

VERY practical and inexpensive learning aids you have overlooked are Loren Miller's Key Guides. Learning the keyboard commands is the single best productivity enhancer you can do. Besides - they make festive and cheery place-mats at dinner. They are easy to clean when you spill your breakfast cereal - or fall asleep at the keyboard and drool. Key Guides are available in the LAFCPUG store. :-)

Ian

I bought those Apple Pro Training books as well...and found them very inaccessible. I learned editing by doing it, and I think I'm pretty darned fast in terms of being able to execute what I want. (does anybody actually use the "extend" command, seriously?) I may not know all the commands, but few of us need to. For example, I almost never use "swap" edit -- I'm so fast at making room in my timeline and cutting things in by hand that even though my way takes more operations, it's just as fast as using the intended commands in the program.

I think the best way to get re-acquainted is to get your hands on some real footage that can really be cut together -- not that "Sahara" b.s. that comes with the Pro Training books. No offense to Weynand and Peachpit Press, but the fact is, it's so much better to be able to cut a real scene, solving real problems and achieving real goals, rather than a template batch of footage with no context.

And Ian's on the nose -- I started using keyboard shortcuts on a music-video project in 2001, and that's when I became really fast. Learn one or two at a time and use them to death. The shortcuts become second nature, and you can kiss a lot of the mouse pointing a well-deserved goodbye!

Yeah, you guys are right. I know the best way to learn is by doing, but there's things I may never learn if I just try to wing it. I want to make sure I at least know something about all of the things that can be done, just in case.

I don't have a camera right now to shoot anything and capture right now anyways. I'm still contemplating the direction to go with that, and leaning towards waiting for the HVX200.

Plus, I've never done any mixing, color correcting, or graphics work before, so I need to start somewhere. If I just try to jump in I might get lost and discouraged. I found that going through the Soundtrack book, but working on different material than what's in the book for practice between lessons really helped me a lot. I'd take classes, but they are really expensive.



-Mike

Buy Avid and save yourself your sanity before its too late

Larger investment and more difficult operations. I gotta say, unless you're already cutting a lot of very high-end projects on a regular basis, go with FCP. Avid is for features and $700-a-day jobs. Great thing to know, of course (I don't), but just a training course costs $10,000.

Mike,

in my opinion, and experience, the best way is to have a real project that needs to be finished.

have a deadline, PLUS a lot of time to finish.
that doesnt need to be a contradiction.

when an issue comes up, dont panic, just calmly look it up in the book.
if there is an order, itd; be the natural path of a film.
you;ve leapt ahead a bit with the soundtrack, and you;ll probably want to refresh when your project gets to that stage

working with material other than hte tutorial stuff is a great idea.

there's a sign up in the office of the head of the editing dept at the film school im teaching at, and i realy must get a copy, or write it down, as my memory of it is faulty, but it goes somehting like

we learn
10% from what we read
20% from what we hear
30% from what we see
(something, something,something)
80% from what we do,
and
95% from what we teach

boy, i tell ya..
that last one is right!

i hung around another FCP forum (2-pop) a lot when i was starting out.
reading items of interest,
searching for issues i was dealing with.
i got a LOT out of it
and after a while, i felt it was time to give back.
sometimes i;d see a question i thought i could answer, so i did.
but i was so scared of being wrong, that i always checked my facts, and went thru the proces myself before i wrote back.
it actualy became a great way to learn new things:
someone would ask a q about something i half knew, and was interested in,
and id figure it out and write back.

anyway,
have fun with it all.
cheers,
nick

> 95% from what we teach

It's always fascinating what similar paths editors often have.

I learned Final Cut Pro by teaching it. No, not by mastering it first, but by teaching it before I even knew it!

I became very good at operating Adobe Premiere at my film school, and then the whole lab switched over to Final Cut Pro, and I was hired to teach it. I didn't know FCP then, but I knew enough general principles about digital editing that I did OK. And then, when somebody asked me a question I didn't know the answer to, I would test it out. Instant education.

Mike, I'd suggest also trying to find an environment where you have human support for your editing process. LAFCPUG is great, but it's still not quite the same as having somebody you can get to look over your shoulder from time to time. And preferably, somebody with proper work habits. The guy who headed the FCP training at that old film school was a pro, but he had such a loose file-management system that all of his students were unable to locate their own files, because he told them to "come up with their own system". At that stage, they weren't aware enough of the process to come up with their own system. I generally had to step in and tell them the "right" way of doing things...my way. Then when they got familiar enough with my system, they could decide what to change and what not. My system came from my first Premiere teacher and after almost seven years, I still use it almost verbatim.

I've got tell you, if you want to learn FCP in an interactive fashion, I have found no beter that the Digital Media Training Series from Magnet Media for learning every nuance of FCP 4-4.5 and they just started shipping their FCP 5 updater.

What I like about this DVD based training it that they touch in not just the tool (FCP) but identify every facet of the technology in the process. There are plenty of lessons involved and reviewing each topic is very accessable.

For grusome, step by step training, that is what the Apple Pro Series Training books from Peachpit Press are for. They are another way to learn and depending on your learning style, you might find them helpful.

The DTMS Inside Editing with FCP 4-4.5 is available on the LAFCPUG web site at a discount.

Avid? Are you insane? I'm just beginning and you think I have the money for an Avid? I think Avid is over-rated anyways. From what I've seen other people crank out using FCP, I could probably do just about anything on FC Studio and some other apps for a fraction of the cost of what an equivalent "Avid" would cost. And I've used Avid before. In fact, it was the first non-linear editing system I learned on and to me it's no better.



-Mike

Okay, forget about the part that I'm learning right now from books. That's the way I want to start out and that's the way it is. I learn better by at least having some understanding of what I'm doing when I decide to jump in. Everyone's made some good points and provided some good input. Yes, experience and real world practice is the best way to learn, but I need to familiarize myself with all this first.

How about the order? Should I learn FCP, then Motion, then DVD Studio Pro? Also, if I want to get into Maya and Shake, which of those should I learn first? I'm thinking Maya, but I'm not sure.



-Mike

Yes, Extend edit is a great tool in the right situation. Swap edit in ok, could be better. But if you need to swap the location of two clips side by side, it's not bad.

-CHL

Mike -
You keep looking for a best practices order. There is none. Developing a show is a non-linear process, with parallel things happening. Whatever order you impose on a project is arbitrary - and for your convinience.

So while in general you want to log and capture all your footage towards the front - after about 10 ours of that I'm toast - and need to go work on graphic design or do a VO record or I just turn to jelly. Same with editing. After a morning cutting a tough sequence - an afternoon doing the compositing will get me further than bulling ahead with another tricky sequence.

Different projects have different optimal work flows - and experimenting with that is the best way to learn. That said - and understanding there's a huge overlap . . . .Order: Maya comes in earlier in projects - toward the beining. edit next, sound after that, then compositing like shake.

I understand your desire to learn all. I submit that while I know folks who can get by in Maya Shake and FCP I've yet to meet ANYONE I consider an expert and fluid in all. The projects work flows and the delivery chores are too broad. The culture and the tools are too varied.

Maya's great for animation - so you'll want to set up an art station - perhaps add a 3-d scanner, and the special modeling tools set . . . not to mention the specialy knowlege involved in mocap.

That's a LIGHTYEAR from the high end compositing chores SHAKE is optimized for. To make SHAE sing - you'll want the HD level suite - and optimize your work area for a totaly different thing.

I'm NOT saying don't learn them. I AM saying as a practical matter - you should pick a specialty. Once you've mastered that - then move on. Trying to learn all at once is probably not a good use of your time.

You've also not mentioned Photoshop in your mix. MASTERING that will help. transfer modes, layer blending and advanced PS stuff all translates directly to video compositing.

Ian

Mike, you haven't mentioned what exactly you want to become. Are you trying to be an editor? An effects artist/titles designer? A sound mixer?

Each of these jobs takes a lifetime to "master". And each of the applications you're talking about takes years of experience to build up speed, accuracy, versatility, and most elusive of all -- creative personality.

It sounds like you're trying to tackle a lot. But focus on one. Editing is the basis for all of these, so any editing application would be your starting point. Good FX people have to know pacing and visual storytelling, and good sound mixers have to be able to complement the story with sound -- all parts of editing.

In my experience, Jacks of All Trades often don't function as well as creative personnel who specialize and excel at their field. The best DPs know editing, but don't edit; the best editors may know how to do advanced graphics and FX, but on big jobs, they'd still have somebody else do it. It's enough to have to get the editing of the film/show tight, creative and progressive.

Mike,

Try not to give yourself a brain tumor learning the apps. I was a film editor for close to 30 yrs. before moving to FCP 1.2 5 yrs. ago. I have all the books you mention plus some of the DVD's that Ian mentions in addition to Apple's manuals which I regard highly.

All this stuff I relate to as reference material. Pick up a copy of Lisa Brenneis's Final Cut Pro 5 when it ships. Lisa's book was a godsend to us when Apple's manual was terrible. Don't overlook the pdf copies of the manual which you can access through the Help menu.

I agree with the opinion that using your own material is generally better than using the material in the tutorials. I applaud Peachpit for improving the quality of the practice materials included in the Apple Training series. The problem with the material is that it is usually very short, and as we as editors are used to working with a wide range of material that of lots of choices. The stuff in the Apple training series is a bit of a paint by numbers approach. I'm not knocking them, I think they're very good at a very basic level.

I spend about 50% of my working time editing for clients & the rest of the time teaching. Any slack time I have I hit the books & brush up on my knowledge of the programs. My manuals are extensively underlined & annotated, so that I can do a quick review of what previously caught my attention.

Having done a lot of teaching over the year's, I am aware that everyone doesn't learn how to do things in a one approach fits all manner. For some people reading the manuals is the best sleeping pill on the market. Other's who do not touch type have difficulty taping in to the incredible speed of editing that keyboard shortcuts enable.

If your main source of income is going to be from editing, I would say spend the bulk of your learning time on FCP 5 & Soundtrack Pro & a lesser amount of time on the other apps.

If on the other hand your main source of income will come from motion graphics work, then concentrate mainly on Motion & Livetype.

Dave

Ian,

I'm not looking for a best practices order for making a movie. I'm looking for the best order to learn the software. There's a big difference. I know that in post production you jump from one piece of software to the next. Learning is different though. I want to learn each program individually, and then after that, learn how they interoperate between each other. I'm just wondering which order would be best to learn them, not actually use them.



-Mike

I am really looking to be a writer, director, and editor. I want to write my own movies (features), direct them, and then edit them so that my vision is correctly realized at the end. The reason I want to learn how to do the graphics, vfx, and sound production/mixing is because that's all part of the post production. I feel it's important for someone who works in editing (or any other post position) to know something about all the other related activities. That's what I'm looking for. Do I plan on doing all the post vfx for a feature I'm making? No, I would rather leave that to someone with more skills and experience. But, I do plan on possibly doing some of it and being involved in it. If I know somewhat how to do that stuff, then I will be able to participate more effectively. It would especially be important for me to know if the person doing the vfx is doing what they can and supposed to be doing to accomplish what I'm looking for at the end product. It also helps me understand what's possible/feasible and what isn't.



-Mike

I plan on using multiple methods to learn. The training and tutorial books are only the beginning. Where I'll learn the most is through actual work. I won't feel comfortable taking on any projects unless I have a good idea of how to accomplish and complete pretty much anything that will be thrown at me.



-Mike

Mike,

You are thinking that you can know a little of every facet of film/video and get by, but that would probably be a mistaken path to take.

In life, you can be informed about many things but only really good at one or two things.

I would suggest you find out WHAT you want to be and focus on that first. Once there, you will earn what other pieces of information you need to know. It really is best to not know a little of everything because you would tend to micro-manage the entire operation unless you are extremely self confident in your and others abilities.

Just a suggestion.

Thanks for your advice and suggestions, but I respectfully disagree with you... mostly. It is entirely possible to be talented and have the skills in multiple areas and produce outstanding work. I'll use Robert Rodgriguez as an example:

On more than one occasion he has been the following in his various films: writer, director, DP, editor, producer, composer, camera operator, sound recorder, sound mixer, sound editor, visual effects supervisor, special effects, and production designer.

Is he the best at everything? Of course not. Is he at least good at almost all of it? I'd say he's proven himself. Sure, he may not make the best movies that are Oscar-caliber material, but they are technically well made and are entertaining to a lot of people, which to me is what it's all about. As much as we all want to be artists, to the audience it's entertainment.

There's also Hitchcock. A lot of his movies were his stories, he just had someone else do the writing a lot of the time. A lot of them he also actually wrote himself. Of course he directed them all. What a lot of people don't know is that he also basically edited them as well. He controlled the shooting of his movies so tightly that it was basically in-camera editing. The way the movies were shot basically gave the actual editor no choices to make in the cutting of the movies.

Some of the best directors started out as editors. I know that not everyone can be multi-talented like that. Am I the next Robert Rodriguez or Hitchcock or the next greatest filmmaker of all time? Probably not, but I'll remain positive and say I hope so.

I'm going to do the best damn job I can. If someone else can perform well in multiple roles then there's no reason I can't as well. And there's no reason I shouldn't at least try my hardest and give it a shot. I'm going to master storytelling, and to me that is primarily being a writer, director, and editor of the films I want to make. The rest of it, sound and vfx, etc., will come second to that. If I can do it, then great. But if I can't, then I'll go to someone who can. But since I will at that point have at least some understanding of it all I can communicate my vision to that person much better.



-Mike

"There's also Hitchcock. A lot of his movies were his stories, he just had someone else do the writing a lot of the time. A lot of them he also actually wrote himself. Of course he directed them all. What a lot of people don't know is that he also basically edited them as well. He controlled the shooting of his movies so tightly that it was basically in-camera editing. The way the movies were shot basically gave the actual editor no choices to make in the cutting of the movies."

this is just not true.
contrary to what you say this is what most people "know"
but it's just a myth put about by hitch himself.
(he was quite a stroyteller!)
he probably planned more than most directors,
but the "cutting in the camera" isnt suported by research.
dont forget his best films were made with a core group of key people.

Editor George Tomasini,
DP Robert Burks,
Designer Henry Bumstead,
Composer Bernard Herrmann

I'm interested to know where you got your information. I've actually studied Hitchcock specifically, and even took a film school class dedicated to him. This subject actually came up. It was a few years ago, so I don't remember which one, but it is in one of Donald Spoto's books on Hitchcock, "The Dark Side of Genius" or "The Art of Alfred Hitchcock". If you need me to I supposed I can go through and read them again to quote the book and tell you the page. I tried to find it in the indexes, but it's not listed. I specifically remember reading it in one of those books and discussing it in class. Donald Spoto is considered one of the foremost scholars on Hitchcock and his knowledge about Hitchcock is highly regarded and respected, so it's difficult to believe it's not true.

Also, George Tomasini only edited 8 of Hitchcock's 67 directed films and Robert Burks only DP'd I believe 12. Also, the two didn't work together on ALL of the same films. I would hardly say they were his "core group" of people.



-Mike

No one's trying to prevent from being the next Orson Wells, but you keep insisting on asking the how long is a piece of string question. Put your feet in the water & you'll be on your way to mastering how to swim.

All the best.
Dave

I was simply asking for suggestions on the best order to learn the different programs. For example, I would assume you would want to learn FCP and get familiar with it before you jump into Motion. I just wanted to make sure I was on the right track. Thanks for the advice though.



-Mike

I think that is a good plan Mike. Good luck to you.

All the best.

Dave

Obviously if you're interested in writing & directing mastering the editing app FCP is the logical first step as this is where the story & character development takes place. Cleaning up the sound tracks are obviosly next.

If you were coming from a background in graphic design you would move move to Motion & Livetype sooner as your intrests would gravitate to moveing animation patterns & you would not be overly concerned with plot structure & character development

Allt he best.
Dave

i suspect that spotto might be toeing the same party line, and believing hitchcok's own self mythologising.

sorry i cant remember much about where i get my info.
there was one book about hitchcock and selznick, which i think looked at the DPR's (Daily Production Reports) from his Selznick films.
i also have a vague recolection of an interview with an editor, but i could be wrong.
i;m also going on my understanding of film coverage.

any reading of hitchcock's own takes on himself and his work shows him to be a bit of a fibber, prefering a fancy self agrandising story to the simple facts. (like most directors!)
when truffaut asked him if step-printing had been used in RearWindow, during a CU of a kiss between Kelly and Stewart, hitch claimed that no, the effect was created by him shaking the camera man during the shot.
that interview was before video, so i guess he thought he could get away with it!

hitch had a very long career, so he did work with many many people.
the ones i mentioned were from what some consider to be his best period.
after he stopped working with them, his films took a nosedive.
it was getting towards the end of his carrer.. maybe he was just tired.

nick

You are right... at times he was known to be a bit of a fibber. I don't see why he would fib about that one little shot though.

He never actually said *he* did the shaking. Specifically he said "These are pulsations that I get by shaking the camera by hand or dollying backward and forward, or sometimes by doing both." It's on page 222. He could have easily just been telling the DP to do that. Since none of us were there, and Hitchcock's not around anymore, there's really no way to know. Btw, he used the same technique in "To Catch a Thief" for the kiss scene as well.

He had some great films before he started working with them as well. I think he was just aging and past his prime. It's nice to know there's someone else out there who seems to be very knowledgeable and interested in and appreciates Hitchcock's work.



Post Edited (06-17-05 16:33)

-Mike

"Since none of us were there, and Hitchcock's not around anymore, there's really no way to know"

well i know what a step-printed shot looks like!
and with video/dvd we can actualy examine these things a lot more.

i think he would be compelled to fib about that shot, as a post-prod trick like that could indicate that he didnt get it right on the day, which just doesnt fit in with the hitchcock mythology
or maybe George Tomasini just sent the shot off to the lab, and didnt tell him!

I didnt realise that about "to catch a thief". must have been distracted by the fireworks! and of course you;re right, he made many fine movies before.

modern times can show us other things as well..
i recently read a collection of hirchcock interviews.
i guess he never thaught that they'd all be collected together sometime.
it was interesting, though a bit disapointing, that he basically gave the same interview over and over for thirty years or so.
same anecdotes, etc

i used to read that truffaut book over and over when i was a kid, and learnt a lot about making movies from it.
i dont want to trash hitch, but i do feel compelled to stand up for his editors!

cheers,
nick