Outputting HDV 1080i50 (PAL?)

Hi,

I was hired on by a small business to cut a pile of tapes of conferences they held in Europe. (I am in the US - So CA.) While of course I knew of PAL, I never worked in it before, nor did my client realize it was PAL at the time. He is non-tech, and his shooter was from Australia, and brought his own cams).

Anyway, so the shows were already digitized in HDV 1080i50, 1920 x1440 I believe (or something like that, I'm not at their office right now.) The FCP was 6.0.2.

So, I didn't realize it was PAL when I was outputting (hadn't worked in that mode before, and didn't notice the "50", thinking it was 1080i30) so I mistakenly output in QT @ 1080i30, and the QT had black frames throughout.

I assume this was due to the differing formats? Also, I would like to output in a quicker way - any suggestions as to output/Compressor settings? Client mostly just wants DVDs for presentation and sales. I don't think he wants or needs to upload.

Thanks!

Yes, if you're shooting in a PAL country you would normally be shooting 50p, also, some cameras used to be PAL or NTSC only (not sure if it still applies).

>so I mistakenly output in QT @ 1080i30, and the QT had black frames throughout.

Did you edit in a PAL timeline? You should export>quicktime movie instead of using quicktime conversion. This is the same procedure in all regions.

If you edited PAL frame rates in NTSC, whoops. Create a new timeline in PAL, and copy your entire timeline over, then run through each cut point and check for black frames as well as whether your edit points have shifted.

>any suggestions as to output/Compressor settings?

Export a QT movie, current settings, send it to compressor and use the best quality setting.

Is your client going to be using the DVD only in Europe/Asia (outside of Japan)? If he's going to be using the DVD in North America/Japan, you will have to make an NTSC copy. NTSC DVDs can play on PAL players, but not vice versa (you guys suck).

If you need it in NTSC, either you send the masters over to a tape house and run it through a Teranex/Alchemist or you send it through Compressor (I would look at deinterlacing the clip and conforming it to 23.98, but make sure you slow down the audio too).

Is your footage really 1080i50 or 1080p25? Do you see interlaced combing when you launch the source footage in Quicktime Pro?



www.strypesinpost.com

Yes, the TL/show is in HDV 1080i50. Really HDV 1080i50, and not 1080p25. I double checked that - but very glad you asked!

I think he is going to offer/ use the DVDs world-wide, including the US. He holds seminars in Europe as well.


Oh cool - so wait - I output in current settings - but then burn it in NTSC for universal play?

I'd say deinterlace the clip and slow it down to 23.976 fps in Compressor. It's either that or run it through Compressor to 29.97 (60i) and see if you prefer that look better.

The workflow would be to down convert, deinterlace and conform to ProRes SD, 720x480, 24p (or 60i if it works better for you), then encode to Mpeg2 (one of the DVD presets). Make sure you set the geometry and the frame control tab properly. I can't get at the settings as I've to rush off now.



www.strypesinpost.com

I work in PAL. If I need to send an NTSC version of the project I do as strypes suggested, Export
a QT movie. Then I follow Graeme Natress's instructions, import the movie into an NTSC
project, and apply the Natress standards conversion plug in, a bargain at the $100 charged.
Then I export another QT movie, this one in NTSC, and run that through Compressor to get
the Mpg2, then burn the material as an NTSC DVD. Hope this helps.Graeme would know if
there are any known issues in 1080i/50 to NTSC.

To deinterlace and retime it to 23.98, do this in Compressor:

- select a ProRes HQ preset (or Uncompressed NTSC if you can afford the drive space).

- Go to the "encoder" tab, "video settings", change frame rate to "Custom" and type "23.976"; go to "audio settings", switch to "enabled", under audio settings, switch to Linear PCM 48khz 24 bits.

- Go to the "frame controls" tab, hit the little gear icon and turn on frame controls. Switch "resize filter" and "deinterlace" to "best", in the "output fields", select "progressive", under "set duration", switch to "so source frames play at 23.98 fps".

- Next tab, switch Color to output 601.

- Geometry tab, switch to 720x480, pixel aspect NTSC/DV 16:9

Turn on background encoding in Qmaster in System preferences (quickcluster with services, managed), and max out your cores (select maximum number of instances), then submit to quick Cluster.


To get Compressor to do standards conversion, do the exact same things, except:

- frame rate in the encoder tab, set to 29.97.

- in the frame controls tab, under "output fields" set to "lower field first", switch "rate conversion" to best, and set duration to "100% of source".



www.strypesinpost.com

You generally get a few kinds of standards conversion.

Deinterlacing and retiming it will keep the motion quality of the source material, although you will lose a bit of spatial resolution, but Compressor does a pretty good job at deinterlacing. The process is really quite straightforward- remove every other field, and interpolate it to build back your original frame, then slow everything down to 24p. It doesn't require building any in between frames by estimating movement or adding motion blur. On playback on analog TVs, a 2:3 pulldown will be added, just like watching your average hollywood blockbuster DVD.

Getting Compressor to do the frame rate conversion, you're essentially using optical flow to estimate movement and to create the in-between frames (similar to the hardware Teranex converters). The conversions are generally quite good, and the created frames are sharper than when you're not using any form of motion estimation at all. However, the results can sometimes be quite erratic, as the algorithm for optical flow is quite complex, and it can break down on certain occasions, resulting in artifacts, also rendering time can be quite long.

The Nattress standards converter is simpler than optical flow, and it doesn't rely on motion estimation to create new frames. Part of what it does, is that it adds motion blur and hopes nobody notices. As a result, render times are shorter than running it through Compressor, and the converted footage doesnt' break down like how optical flow would when it's in a bad mood. But the interpolated frames won't be as sharp, but in some cases it's preferred to the Compressor method.

There really isn't a one method to rule them all. But I would deinterlace and retime in most cases.



www.strypesinpost.com

Wow thanks everyone! PAL is a whole new world to this lady!

OK - what encoder tab?

I'm trying to get Compressor to output, deinterlaced, and I see no encoder tab anywhere.

The only tabs I have are: settings, and destinations. That's it.

I tried selecting DVD Best quality, and got a completely interlaced-looking output.

Not trying to be difficult - I just don't see the options in Compressor that people are describing.

Seriously, you should read the manual...

Answer: Inspector window for changing things...

Sorry... not trying to be difficult...



-Dave

Hi,

Ok so I have a PAL show that I'm trying to output to a DVD for the client to view. I rec'd some great feedback here last week about outputting. Client nixed the Natress idea, so I exported a QT movie (checked it, looks OK) & then pulled the QT movie into Compressor.

Under Apple => DVD => DVD Best Quality 90 minutes, I chose: MPEG-2 6.2 Mbps 2-pass.

Dragged up to the window.

I also chose destination = desktop.

Again, dragged & dropped the destination over the MPEG selection in the submission window.

Then I hit submit... and... nothing...?

I pulled up the batch monitor window - nada is happening.

What did I miss here?

Compressor used to be so easy...

Also, in the top Compressor window, it says:

1 job, 1 target last submitted today at 5:29:45 PM as (name)

When I tried to resubmit (earlier, not this time) it just asked if I wanted to overwrite an existing file - and it had started to create a file on the desktop, but with no running count/frames window in Compressor - it looked like nothing was happening.

Did not resubmit this time - only once.

Urg.

OK - I clicked on the History window, and it seems to be processing.

Question tho: why doesn't this show up automatically, such as in the batch Monitor, like it used to?
is this just the new version reality?

Thanks a lot you guys

Yea, you need to select whether you're using clusters or "this computer", then "active" or "completed" will tell you the status of the job.

>why doesn't this show up automatically, such as in the batch Monitor, like it used to?

It's a guy thing. Us guys love having more clicks.



www.strypesinpost.com

OK but - where do you select whether you're using clusters? I don't see that option anywhere.

Also: when I selected DVD Best Quality => MPEG-2 6.2 Mbps 2-pass, doesn't that include audio? It looked like it did, so I didn't select the additional Dolby, since that looked redundant (by the wording on the MPEG description, which says : " fits up to 90 minutes of video with Dolby Digital audio at 192 Kbps..." Now I have an MOS Mpeg.

I've pulled in video + audio before (and also "one-step/ combined A+V on previous versions of Compressor) - so - I should have selected A + V separately in the current Compressor?

So frustrating.

Also, I heard Compressor will de-interlace, but I don't see that selection here...?

The only place I see cluster come up is when I submit it, and the only option Compressor gives me is: "this computer." ???

By the way, this is a PAL project. Pretty much driving me insane at this point.

PAL HDV. 1080i50.

Here was my original situation:

[www.lafcpug.org]


I'm still getting highly interlaced-looking outputs from Compressor, and I fail to see the tabs everyone keeps suggesting I use. The only tabs I see on Compressor are: settings, and destination.

Am I supposed to go down to custom? I was advised to use Best, under DVD.

Thanks...

I answered part of your question in the other forum:

Previous Thread

I'll repeat it here...

You seem to have several important windows not open in Compressor, which is why you're not seeing the "settings tabs." Go to the Window menu and there are 5 listed windows that you should probably have open during normal Compressor use. It may be that the client's setup had windows closed, so you're not seeing what you should.

The "cluster" or "this Mac" option shows up when you click the "Submit..." button.

Batch Monitor can be set to launch automatically in the Compressor preferences.

Much of your confusion seems to stem from the fact that the setup of the system you're using right now is different from the defaults of the various apps.

And, again, this stuff is really basic and in the manual. You are not a newbie, so it's a bit puzzling why this isn't more obvious to you...


The Inspector window in Compressor is your friend (its contents change depending on what you have selected)...


-Dave

Long form editors tend to work in FCP/Avid most of the time, and we may be a little hazy about newer features outside of the main editing software. In fact, I've been told that a lot of Avid guys still don't know the remarkable script sync feature in Media Composer which has been out for ages (I only wished FCP had it).

>The "cluster" or "this Mac" option shows up when you click the "Submit..." button.

That happens only if you configure Qmaster. You really don't need it for a 40 second project.



www.strypesinpost.com

Julie,

My one comment was intended as a friendly one... I guess it may not be too unusual for an editor who uses FCP to be totally unfamiliar with Compressor and DVD Studio Pro... especially, the lucky ones who have compression and authoring experts to do that kind of work available... ;-)

If you are used to simply using Compressor's presets, unchanged, then you may not be familiar with changing settings. By default, Compressor has all the main windows open...

But, I would argue that one should not use Compressor as a "simple, drag-and-drop" kind of tool, especially when you want the best quality output. It's a "pro tool" and should be learned and used as such, IMO (at least reading through the getting started parts of the documentation).

For an example of why just using Compressor as a "drag-and-drop" tool can get you into trouble is audio settings for many of the DVD presets. Many of the presets have audio level settings that assume you are mastering at "film levels" (for use with Dolby Digital processing equipment), meaning that levels you set and mastered in FCP, for instance, get modified during .ac3 file creation. This behavior, and others like it, can result in unexpected outcomes.

A good reason to learn about the tools we use, rather than just treating them as black boxes...


-Dave

OK, I'm stumped.
Been trying to export/ burn a playable output for my non-tech client. Project started in HDV 1080i50 (shot overseas.)

Using FCP 6.0.5, on a 1.83 GHz Intel Pro Duo iMac (client's).

Shouldn't a .mov file play in DVD player? That seems about as simple as it could possibly get. No dice.

My client is completely non-tech, and just wants to view the outputs on his DVD player.

I also tried outputing numerous times via QT only, via (new/current) Compressor, via QT and then Compressor (yep, I'm on that forum already, going insane) - and the dual files that Compressor creates won't play together either.

What gives?

Thank you.

"Shouldn't a .mov file play in DVD player?"

No. DVD players playback MPEG-2 off an authored disc that are a specific format structure.

Or do you mean playing back in the QuickTime player off the disc? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the file you put on the disc. HDV will most likely not play back. For one thing the Apple native HDV codec is only available with FCS or Logic Pro. Does your client have that?

It would really help if you gave exact information rather than generalizations. What exact format did you export to? There are literally thousands of possible combinations of formats and frame resolutions and frame rates and codecs.

All the best,

Tom

Thanks.

I tried outputting via QT (current settings, self-contained, .mov, as advised) and then Compressor (at best, as advised), and ended up with 2 separate files, Mpeg 2 & audio, which don't seem to play/ burn together. Argh.

Meanwhile, when I tried using iDVD, it wouldn't import the self-contained .mov I'd already exported using QT movie (see workflow above.).

The .mov plays fine in FCP - I just want to burn a simple DVD for my client.

(Leaving out all the other options, like de-interlacing, which I'm not even bothering with at this point.)

What information am I missing here?

iDVD can't use the MPEG-2/ac3 files that you made in Compressor. Those have to be used in DVD Studio Pro, Toast, or another DVD authoring program. Not sure why iDVD won't import your QT file, so I think DVDSPRO is your best bet.

JK

_______________________________________
SCQT! Self-contained QuickTime ? pass it on!

You definitely should be able to drag the QT Movie export into an iDVD project. How are you doing that and what happens when you do it?

All the best,

Tom

Thanks - finally got iDVD to import my .mov. It was just super buggy (previously: grayed-out options...) That's what I'm using for today, with my .mov file ...

Thanks for mentioning Toast re: the Compressor outputs/ files. Haven't used Toast in awhile. I'll use that if I go thru Compressor to de-interlace...

Thank - yes, dragging into iDVD just refused to cooperate (tried dragging into the media/movies window). I closed iDVD & re-opened a number of times, and was finally able to import via the menu, which had been previously grayed-out.

Doing a short test burn to see if I have the right workflow now...

Thanks for helping!