Is the Trim Edit window really a feature?

The current behavior of the TEW is so bizarre that I find it hard to believe it was intentional. That the placement of the cursor over a window is the activation source for which window plays back with JKL is really strange to me. It also means the TEW cannot be used purely from the keyboard, but requires mouse activation to be used properly.

The current behavior is so odd and out of keeping with anything else in the application that I can't believe it was intended. If it was, it was an astonishingly bad idea that I'm really sorry ever saw the light of day; and if it wasn't, it's a pretty honking big cockroach that should be dealt a death blow quickly.

All the best,

Tom

I'm embarrassed when I have to use a mouse! Here Here! Not even an assignable action. I'd have thought with the extra features added to Trim Edit that one would get into the mix. Don't know if I'd go so far as to call it a honking cockroach, but I'd sho nuff love to have seen that action available...

This is an old feature of the Avid Media Composer systems.

I have sorely missed it when editing in FCP 1-3.

When executing a trim on both rollers, its nice to be able to see the outgoing clip in stead of the incomming.

I believe that you have to use the mouse on the Avid systems also.

As this new feature is only active when the mouse enters the left side of the trim window (it will default to the right side) leaving the mouse out of the window will sport FCP 3 behavior (right?)

Althougt its annoying for heavy keyboarders, can we agree that this is not a bug, but in fact a feature request for an assignable keyboard shortcut for "toggle trim monitoring"?

Leaving aside what Avid may or not do, which doesn't much matter to me, there is really no default condition for the TEW. It's behavior is entirely governed by where the cursor is. If you open the window and the cursor is over the timeline it will behave in one way. If you open the window and the cursor happens to be above another window JKL will have a different function. This is loony to me. I have to open the window and then position the cursor before I start playing. Using the U key does not override this behavior. The U key simply determines where the edit will execute but does not control playback behavior.

I guess the idea was a simple way to separate the two functions, to be able to edit one side while playing the other, but using the cursor position as a way to do this may seem like a great idea, but it's one that's going to take some getting used to, and not one that I would have said ranked up there as a one of the better ones. As I said it's such odd behavior, in my view so poorly thought through, that I really find it hard to believe that that was what was intended.

All the best,

Tom

Tom

I certainly respect your position on this question, and while it might convenient for former Avid users as myself, ill agree it might be annoying for others.

I would miss it though if it was removed.

So how about a request for a new preference in "user prefs / general" just below Dynamic trimming for "Trim monitoring follows mouse cursor"

Do you have an idea for a superior paradigm for selecting trim monitoring, as this cerainly can be improved upon?

Off the top of my head how about the Q key. When TEW is active it could toggle between the three windows functions. Some indication which was live would be a good idea. Basically now you have to go hunting around to find wherever you left your cursor to know what's active. Some display in the TEW would be useful. You could make Q just toggle the two windows using JKL only in the windows and spacebar and shift-spacebar always for loop mode. Pretty much anything you could think of would be better to me than the current behavior.

All the best,

Tom

an assignable toggle action and an indicator. Although I'm with Tom and don't need this, I gotta deal with Avid folks too and ANYTHING that keeps them from grumbling about archaic conventions is a winner for me. I just don't want to have to do it this way for lack of alternative. It is weird and seemingly offhand behavior (as opposed to 'functionality').

As Anders observes, this was put in strictly for Avid editors, and one very high profile editor in particular, as a knock-off of the behavior in Avid. Okay, fair enough, if that's what they want. But I'm like Tom - Dynamic trimming! Cool! But first time I looked at it, I was dumbfounded. It seemed like it was a mistake. Surely there's a keyboard toggle that's just undocumented, I assumed.

Nope. It appears to be just as loony as it is, an enhanced JKL feature for people who can whiz away on the keyboard, but still requires the constant clunky placement of the mouse in order to function. Huh?? Can't imagine why Avid editors would have wanted it that way, but then what do i know.

If all they did was add a keyboard toggle for which side plays, in addition to the U-toggle, and a TL override for TL playback, I guess I'd be happy. Seems like it might want to be close to the U-key and the JKL keys. Currently, the playback buttons in either side of the TEW are supposed to show green as an indicator, when they're activated.

What I would much prefer is that the FCP designers give us a fully fleshed out dynamic trimming feature that goes beyond a knock-off of a decade old Avid interface. I prefer to trim in the TL, for instance. Why not have this same feature in the TL? Why restrict it to JKL?

--Ralph

For that matter, why restrict JKL dynamic trimming to the big trim edit window? That itself I cannot understand.

Other than toggling trim sides, I'd also like to isolate incoming or outgoing for auditing/review-- another fab feature of the decade-old Avid interface-- but I'd *also* like to isolate sides during trim operations-- it'd be damned nice to hear how much of the outgoing is being extended/trimmed during looping, or the incoming. That would be much fun using the keyboard.

I have to admit, I don't open the TEW for anything. I tested the dynamic trim operation, it worked, I couldn't choose sides except by mouse, and I lost interest. Now that I'm back in the timeline, I can't use dynamic trim..Annoying.

- Loren
Today's FCP4 Default Keytip:
Toggle live audio keyframe recording with Command-Shift-K !

Your keyboard revealed.
Visit KeyGuide? Central at
www.neotrondesign.com

Another major bug in the trim window occurs when you're trimming split edits or L-cuts. The default playhead position goes to the video edit. But if you select A1 or A2 from the drop down menu on top of the TEW, the playhead correctly moves to the audio edit BUT you hear the audio as if the edit were placed at the point of the video edit. The trim window plays the wrong audio in this case. It is treating the spilt edit as a straight across cut, not as a L-cut.

This is especially frustrating if your trying to trim dialogue sequences.

I have discovered that if you turn linking off on the timeline, this incorrect behavior stops, but it creates a new problem. With linking turned off, you don't hear any audio when you select video from the drop down menu and you don't see any video when you select audio from the drop down menu. You just get that silly speaker icon in the trim window.

Which brings up one last point about the TEW - this new feature in the user preferences called 'trim with sequence audio.' This feature is sooooo badly thought out it's embarrassing.

Basically this feature is supposed to allow an editor to hear the sequence audio when trimming. There are times when this is correct - like when you roll both sides of a picture edit for instance. In this case you are not changing the audio cut so it would make sense to hear the audio of the sequence as you roll the video edit. In fact hearing the sequence audio helps you to determine where to make the picture cut.

Hearing the sequence audio should not be an option that the editor has to turn on and off in the preferences - it should be a function of what kind of trim you are doing.

With the way it is now, leave it turned on and try to extend the A side of a video/audio edit and all you hear is the incoming audio on the B side of the cut.

Totally unbelievable.

So trim mode has several bugs plus some really badly implemented 'features.'

Quote

Another major bug in the trim window occurs when you're trimming split edits or L-cuts. The default playhead position goes to the video edit. But if you select A1 or A2 from the drop down menu on top of the TEW, the playhead correctly moves to the audio edit BUT you hear the audio as if the edit were placed at the point of the video edit. The trim window plays the wrong audio in this case. It is treating the spilt edit as a straight across cut, not as a L-cut.

I just don't see this behavior, Mitch. It behaves just like i would expect it to. I have Clip A and Clip B on V1, A 1+2. Both clips are native DV with Stereo Pairs. The audio of Clip B comes in about 5 secs before the video of Clip B. I have Linking on, and all tracks Autoselected.

I'm opening the TEW with Cmd-7, and toggling with the U-key to a Ripple B-incoming. I hear and see the video and audio correctly as I trim. I use the pull-down widget to go move the playhead to the left, to the leading audio edit on A1. When I trim there, I hear the correct audio for that audio cut, and not the audio under the video cut.

Are your clips merged clips, or any kind of double system audio that you have linked yourself? Not sure what else I might be doing differently than you are.


--Ralph

I like Q to toggle.
It's so ingrained as the way to switch from Viewer to Canvas, from Source to Record, from Left to Right.
That means the Q has one function when trim window is not open, and antoher function when trim window IS open.
That's ok, it does something else when you are in the browser (takes you to something startgin with "Q"
But does that mean that FCP really IS "modal"?

Just a quick survey:
Do people use trim mode (oops,Trim Window) a lot?
*Do you leave it open all the time, and have it as just another "space" you bounce to.
*Do you leave it open for long peoriods and work in there, jumping from one edit to the next, refining each one as you go
*Do you open it ocasionally and tweak a few edits.
*Do you open it rarely, mainly trimming in the TL, like me.
(Actualy I've taken to using the viewer window for some trimming, especialy audio. I can hear and see the audio, and with the ripple and roll tools SELECTED (you cant see them) marking in/out points in the viewer actualy ripples and rolls. )

I havent had much need to try the new version of TEW, yet.

Nick

Just a quick survey:
Do people use trim mode (oops,Trim Window) a lot?

I use it quite a bit.

*Do you leave it open all the time, and have it as just another "space" you bounce to.

Actually it doesn't stay open. if you go to another mode like the timeline it disappears.

*Do you leave it open for long peoriods and work in there, jumping from one edit to the next, refining each one as you go

Once I start working in it, I'll work in for a time, going through edits.

*Do you open it ocasionally and tweak a few edits.

Sometimes

*Do you open it rarely, mainly trimming in the TL, like me.

I usualy find I in there at least once a day. Is that a lot?

All the best,

Tom

Ralph,

I don't know Ralph, trim mode has never worked correctly for me on two different CPU's since FCP 1.2.

When linking is ON and I try to trim a video/audio split edit, it defaults to the video cut. So I choose A1 from the drop down menu and the playhead in the trim window moves to the audio cut, BUT I hear the audio as if the cut is staight under the video cut.

A give away is that the in/out markers under the INCOMING and OUTGOING windows don't change. Something is foul here. The playhead moves to indicate the audio cut but nothing else seems to reflect that.

I'm curious as to why it works for you.

Having said all that, if I turn linking OFF on the timeline then go into trim mode, FCP works correctly. But now you can't easily trim both video and audo together without a lot of option and command clicking.

A little messed up for me.

I may be seeing something here, Mitch. It happens when pushing the Play button for me, but not the Play Around Current Button.

I do notice that when I push the *Play* button on the REC side of the TEW, in the situation you describe, instead of the *Play Around Current* button as i usually do, then I DO get the results you describe. The TEW does not play the correct audio - it plays the audio at the video cut, not the audio cut, even though the playhead is way upstream at the audio cut.

Means that when you use Dynamic trimming, you also hear the wrong audio when you hit the L-key, (with mouse-in rec) in this situation. Get's pretty confusing, alrighty.

It that what you mean?

--Ralph

*Do people use trim mode (oops,Trim Window) a lot?

I use it maybe 10-20% of the time. I tend to favor it when I have multiple layers to trim, and only want to do a frame here, a frasme there.

*Do you leave it open all the time, and have it as just another "space" you bounce to.

Tom's right on, on this one. You CAN"T leave it open. It has the same silly FCP auto-genie behavior as so many other things, where the app thinks it knows what you want to do better than you do, so it goes into consumer-auto-focus mode and closes the window anytime you click anywhere in the TL, trying to be helpful, but actually frustrasting me. That's one of the main reasons rarely use it.

*Do you leave it open for long peoriods and work in there, jumping from one edit to the next, refining each one as you go

No. I generally use it for special cases.

*Do you open it ocasionally and tweak a few edits.

Yes.

*Do you open it rarely, mainly trimming in the TL, like me.

Yes.

(Actualy I've taken to using the viewer window for some trimming, especialy audio. I can hear and see the audio, and with the ripple and roll tools SELECTED (you cant see them) marking in/out points in the viewer actualy ripples and rolls. )

Yup. With faster machines, this is getting better. But with just a little more finesse to trimming in the TL, I might never go into the TEW.

--Ralph

Yes, Ralph - that's exactly the situation. It's really obvious when cutting dialogue - you are hearing the wrong portion of the dialogue. Can't trim it this way.

Savings grace is to turn linking off, but this ought to be fixed.

Hi Mitch,

I'm moving to post this as a new and dedicated thread, now that we finally have tweased out what I think you are talking about. It is a true bug, and a serious bug, and deserves its own thread. Just could not divine it, from your earlier posts.

--Ralph