Slip Tool

This is an oldie and I'm not totally sure whether this is a bug or whether it's supposed to be like this...seems confusing to me.

I have a clip which I want to slip:
Source IN: 01:16:00:10
Source OUT: 01:16:05:10

I want to go later into the source footage by 10 frames.

The natural thing would be to drag the clip to the right to tighten it up - just like ripple edits. However I have to drag on this clip to the LEFT with the Slip Tool in order to get an IN point of 01:16:00:20.

Alternatively if I select the clip first, then select the Slip Tool and use the keyboard to trim, then I need to type "-10" to tighten the clip up.

I can't help feeling that the Slip Tool works in the opposite way round compared to all the other trim modes (including Slide). Or is it just me?

Hi martin,

With the Slip tool, the visual metaphor is that you are slipping the 'filmstrip' underneath the clip, and not the clip itself. If you put a clip in the middle of an empty track and watch the brown bounding box as you drag, imagine that the brown box is a filmstrip of the media, and the clip is a stationary viewport window cut through the timeline, to view the filmstrip underneath.

Once you get the visual metaphor, it seems really direct and tactile and intuitive, to me. Since that's what a slip edit is - the clip is stationary, and you are slipping the media underneath it, and not slipping the clip itself. That's why it is different than other trims, that work on the clip itself, not the media underneath it.

But then, a good argument can be made for doing it the otherway too, but the visual feedback on the brown bounding box would seem strange, I would think.

But you're right, the treatment of the plus and minus numerical TC entries seems totally backwards to me, and backwards to how I remember it in 1.0. The best metaphor for TC is simple arithmetic, me thinks. So plus ten frames should act like as if you are adding 10 frames to the TC value, and therefore moving to a location later in time, not earlier in time. I could swear that's how it used to be in a previous millinium. If so, then maybe the + or - TC entry part is a bug.

--Ralph

What Ralph said.

I think I've gotten used to this.
But this is ALWAYS confusing, and not just in FCP.

When mixing on film, and we neeeded an effect slipped, no one could really remember if you told the people in the back room to "advance" or "retard" the dubber.

My simple approach has been to try one way, and if it's wrong, go the other!
After a while, your body just remember the moves.

Another graphic way to learn/understand the FCP way is to show overlays in the timeline (OptionW) and put a keyframe on the clip.
Slip -10 makes the keyframe move backwards 10 frames.
Slip +10 makes it move forwards.

I just checked in FCP 1.0 (!) and it's the same there.

Cheers,
Nick

What Ralph said.
What Nick said.

[ When mixing on film, and we neeeded an effect slipped, no one could really remember if you told the people in the back room to "advance" or "retard" the dubber.]

Of course it takes more people to do that; it's much easier to advance or retard the *media*! <G>

I jest because it's a simple frame of reference issue. The clip really does become your stationary reference. The TC is embedded like sprocket holes in the moving clip. You slip back to truncate the In point to a later number and slip it ahead to extend the In to an earlier number.

I don't sense much difference between FCP and Avid slip or slide. Just as confusing. No pink rollers of course.

- Loren
Today's FCP4 keytip:
To record audio keyframes on the fly:
Command-Shift-K !

FCP4 KeyGuide? reveals ALL the power!
Now available at
www.neotrondesign.com

Of course it's the pink rolers that make all the difference.
It's no small difference, either.

Avid and Lightworks are both able to define TWO POINTS that you can slip within.
This means you can slip or slide a RANGE of edits.
In FCP, selectng a range, and using the slip or slide tools has a completely different effect, as each clip is sliped or slid within itself.

Being able to slip a whole range of clips for sync isn't a terrible idea, though, but it would be good if we could do the other thing/s too.

Just to elaborate:
Imagine a shot of a person, they look off into the distance.
You then cut to a rapid sucession of images from thier past,
before cutting back to them.
After reviewing the sequnce, you decide to hold on the person for a few more frames befor the flash back, and have a few less frames after it.

In "Other Apps" you define the out point of the Person before the flashback, and the inpoint of the person after, and just slide with numbers or nudging.
In FCP, you have to trim the front, then the back,
or Drag the flashback up to the next track, extend the CU under it, select the flash back, and use the move tool.
In FCP if you selected the range and used the slide tool, the shots all slide over each other, and it's a mess.

Or am I missing something?

The defined points also seems to be what the apps loop around.
As of FCP4, we now have looping around edits in the Timeline when we enter numerical trim values.
Hooray!
Thank you Apple!
Wouldnt it be great, if we had looping when we sliped, or slid a shot, too?
It could work even with the current "Selection" aproach to slip/slide
Maybe the loop would default to the nearest end of the selection,
or maybe that would be an option,
"Loop around begingin of selection"
"Loop around end of selection"
"Loop around nearest end of selection"


Nick

[As of FCP4, we now have looping around edits in the Timeline when we enter numerical trim values.
Hooray!]

Nick, you were misisng that? That's been around since V. 2 and earlier! :-(
Read my Keys to Speed article right here on LAFCPUG.

(And he was doing so well, with that Avid slip trick and lal....tch tch.)

- Loren
Today's FCP4 keytip:
To record audio keyframes on the fly:
Command-Shift-K !

FCP4 KeyGuide? reveals ALL the power!
Now available at
www.neotrondesign.com

We've had "Play Around Current" in the TL, which has been handy when trimming in the TL with numbers or brackets. But we never had "Play Around Edit (Loop)." I don't think we do now, unless I'm missing something.

Meaning, when an edit is selected and you are in ripple or roll mode, and hit the \ key, the playhead should jump to the edit point, and play around the edit point, seems to me. It currently plays around wherever it happens to be (Current frame), as far as I can see. I would really like to see that feature, because i am continually having to hit the v-key to move the playhead to the edit, before I can Play Around Edit (Loop).

--Ralph

Hey, Loren.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I dont know what it could be.
My FCP3 DOES NOT loop around edits in the timeline when I enter a number.
It loops around the edit when I use the nudge keys.
But that's not very usefull.
If I need to trim 3 frames, 3 hits of the nudge key makes the playhead start the loop 2 times before it plays the 3rd one through.

Here's what happens for me in FCP3:

Select edit in timeline,
Play around Edit
Enter trim value, enter.
The edit changes,
and the playhead goes to the edit, and stops.

Also did it using the steps you outlined:

-Select edit in timeline,
-Enter trim value, enter.
-Play around Edit
(but the same thing happens
The edit changes,
and the playhead goes to the edit, and stops.

Tried both PAL and NTSC sequences

It works in the Trim window, but not in the Timeline.

Checking 3.02 in OS9 on G4 Tower, and 3.04 in OSX on TiPowerbook
I've trashed prefs a few times in the last 18 months, too, and it's never happend for me.

Nick

Nick-

[ My FCP3 DOES NOT loop around edits in the timeline when I enter a number.
It loops around the edit when I use the nudge keys.]

You have a cranky machine!! I have seen this behavior; it's off, it's on, I dunno why. It's happened to me. Maybe it's bad RAM.

Just to clarify, as Ralph underlines, Play Around Current is the function we apply (backslash)-- there is no explicit Play Around Edit-- yet.

The same combination of key commands outlined in Keys to Speed applies here, and if you're not able to get the selected edit point to move between loop iterations, feed your machine some dope or something!!

Seriously, could it be something as simple as prefacing your trim value with PLUS or MINUS? Oh, that's insulting, I know.

Could it be....SATAN?

Scratching my head...

- Loren
Today's FCP4 keytip:
To record audio keyframes on the fly:
Command-Shift-K !

FCP4 KeyGuide? reveals ALL the power!
Now available at
www.neotrondesign.com

"Maybe it's bad RAM"
Who knows. FCP4 works on the Powerbook, 3.04 doesn't.
in OS9 on same machine, FCP3.02 is the same.
and FCP2 doesnt work in a different way (Playhead shoots to edit point and stops as soon as I enter a + or-)
while FCP2 on tower doesnt work in the usual "doesn't work" way.

Ergh... I'll not bother about it, I think.
It works for me in 4, and that's good.
I had formulated a system that worked fine in 3.
Enter trim value, Shift left arrow a couple of times, play.
My own pre-roll.
Which actualy I like, as I can adjust it to taste. I can loose the big picture in a loop situaltion.

"Play Around Current is the function we apply (backslash)-- there is no explicit Play Around Edit-- yet."
Yes, I understand. I have placed my playhead on or near the edit.

Yes, entering + or -.
and the edit does occur, the playhead just doesnt loop.
(Not insulting, as one has to cover all the bases, but thanks for your concern!)

So maybe my non-working "play around" in FCP3 and 2 is the only genuine bug to appear in this whole thread!
Good thing we're looking for bugs in FCP4, as I can't figure it.

As for Ralphs point:
"Play around Current" should alter behaviour to "Play around Edit" if an edit point is selected.
Seems a good idea.

Thanks, Gentlemen.
Nick

Quote

es, entering + or -.
and the edit does occur, the playhead just doesnt loop.

Yo Nick,

Have you turned on View > Loop Playback? Or, as a Loren-type might say, Ctrl-L? Once started, looped playback continues, while you type away a continuing series of numerical trims. I like it. Only problem for me is having to center the playhead on the edit, first.

--Ralph

Yeah. loop was on.
Or .. if it wasn't, it made no difference when I DID turn it on.

I always thought there should have been an indicator in the TL if you had loop on or off.
NOw in FCP4, That's just what I've got, courtessy of the Buttons.

Nick