Broken Add-edit behaviour

I have always appreciated the flexibility of FCPs interface, especially how fluid editing in the timeline was. My favorite features has always been:

1. The ability to copy from one track and then paste into another (which is impossible on Avid)

2. The ability to select a segment on a track in the timeline and use ctrl+v to split only the selected clip (and not any un-selected segments above or below) And this behavior overrides any tracks auto selectors! Very, Very flexible.

BUT to my horror: Yesterday after upgrading to 4.5, my nr. 2 favorite is NOT working any more. Only the auto selector is respected.
So now if I want to split only the segment on video track 4 I have to disable all other auto selectors, instead of just selecting the segment I want to split!

Tell me this is me behaving badly or a bug, will ya'
I'd hate to go back and live in 4.1.1 forever.....

(sorry, I'm very tired)
Same new behavior on both my G5 and PB 15"

Mac osx 10.3.3, 1.5 GB ram, FCP 4.5, QT 6.5.1

If this is really the new behavior, The FCP developers are clearly under some bad bad influence from some deranged users or Avid swichers.
I can't stand it, it...sucks.

Oh, no, this is really bad news.

I do that all the time, if I want to QUICKLY and EASILY add an edit.
No time to dick around trying to hit those tiny track select targets..
just select the clip and control V.

Why take away something that is usefull?

Nick

Yes, it ignores selected clips. It's the endless, insidious creeping domination of auto select into all edit functionality in FCP. Yes, you now have to click or option-click or option-keypad to execute an add edit. Oh, and don't forget to do the audio as well. And make sure you do both halves of a stereo pair. Option-clicking on one track of a stereo pair produces no result.

The engineers seem to have decided that auto select will control all editing functions within the FCP timeline. Basically it sucks. It has sucked from the beginning, and it continues to suck even further. I don't know who these guys are listening to, if anybody, but I think I've come across two people on all the forums who actually like auto select. Every other user loathes it.

All the best,

Tom

So what can we do? This is driving me nuts. Feels like I'm missing arm or something. So who knows anyone inside the iron curtain that has the power to fix this mistake?

And by the way. Do any of you have FCP 4.1.1 installed? If you have I like to get a little file from that if you are up to it.

What I want is the 933 KB bugfree Timeline component from 4.1.1. in an e-mail. I can guide you how to extract it.

This change and the bug regarding filter keyframes are almost showstoppers for me.........

I guess you should use the feedback link and tell them now you feel about it.

I have 4.1.1 still running. Tell me how to dig it out and I'll send it to you.

All the best,

Tom

Ok, great.
Here you go:

1. Locate the FCP 4.1.1 application
2. Ctrl click it, choose "show package contents"
3. Navigate to: contents/Macos/Plugins/
4. Copy "Timeline Editor.bundle" to the desktop.
5. Stuff the copy, or zip it if you are in OSX 10.3
6. Mail it to a_holck@mac.com or log onto ichat at the same address....

Thank you! I vill try and H... it into 4.5....

Well, it was not that easy

Please send feedback too guys!
Lets fight this auto select fetish

Its like having one wrong-headed child in a family full of honor students, it just keeps getting in worse and worse trouble. I sorta see the 'logic' of instituting Autoselect control, to provide more specificity in edit actions. But logic ignores the ease we want (and had before 4) for the stuff we are doing 99% of the time. Like you said, what, three people are actually benefitting from Autoselect? The rest of us actively avoid it the way you avoid a traffic jam.

The least they could do is implement a toggle or mode switch for this sort of behavior. We want choice! I can't imagine its easier to code the application to add all these steps either.

I dunno, fellas...

As an adendum,

I'd like to say that selecting the clip in the timeline IS the easiest, most efficient way to perform a Control V "add edit" in FCP.
But that's not the only way I use this function.
What I've been doing a lot lately is double clicking audio into the viewer.
There, I find, is the best place to locate audio events, like a perfect blade point.
When I find it, I hit F to matchframe me back to the timeline, then, as the clip is still selected, I simply Control V.

And others have probably found their own special ways to use this function
All I can do is repeat myself...
Why remove a function that was really very usefull?

In THEORY the track selection seems like a good thing, but after nearly a year, I still don't find it intuitve to use.

Thanks,
Nick

cool matchback trick, nick.

So, I've been mulling over the A.S. situation....I think one of the chief headache-inducing aspects of Auto Select development is that, like the Media Manager, it's a single interface item that's attempting multiple functions and, like Media Manager, is constantly being revised.


Auto Select protocols have developed over the last 18 months or so, and they keep tweaking the rules.

We have the "paste clips" and "match frame"-type rule, which operates on the lowest-numbered auto selected track.

As of 4.5, we have to track a special case for plain cut and paste (auto select after cut/before paste). The exception to the rule applies to cut and paste within a sequence and between sequences. It's a good change in that it simplified simple cut/paste operations, but the editor has to track the exception to the rule.

We have the "apply filter" and "select In to Out"-type cases, where all clips on auto-selected tracks are affected, unless you override Auto Select by selecting TL clips manually.

I think one way the add edit behavior is troubling is that it's an operation that affects all auto-selected tracks, BUT you can't override with a manual TL clip selection, as you can with other "all clips on auto selected tracks" cases.

I think Auto Select is here to stay; I think it will become easier to cope with as the rules settle down and we see more consistency in their application.

I hope.

I understand the logic and the advantages that auto select (with a space as opposed to autosave without a space) has for functions such as track selection, for add edit (though I think it's a shame that the selected clip function was lost); but I do not see the benefit, in fact there is much to be said against using auto select to control pasting or to control match frame. Both of these functions are better controlled by destination track controls. When pasting destination tracks give you better track placement control. Why match frame should not be controlled by destination track settings eludes me. Auto select by its very nature is designed to select multiple items, that's its beauty and its benefit, but match frame is, by definition, a single item on a single track; it has to be. Why use a multiple track selection device to control it? As you say Lisa the rules of auto select have become too ambiguous, with too many variables and parameters. It seems with every revision of the application auto select becomes more and more intrusive, byzantine, and just plain offensive. There are interface issues that really need to be looked in a more holistic fashion, with a wider base than is currently being done. Whether this will ever happen I don't know; it would be nice, but I suspect improbable.

All the best,

Tom

Dear Tom,

I appreciate your persistence in this auto select swamp.

I understand why the design team wanted to reserve target track selectors for assigning destination tracks for edit operations, and use Auto Select for every thing else. It should be neater. Besides, the target track controls available are governed by what type of clip is loaded in the Viewer.

Having instituted the feature, now they're trying to optimize the auto select behavior for each type of operation, and that's why we have all these special rules. Unfortunately, if you can't predict how FCP will interpret auto select because you can't remember all the rules, it's not neater.

I just ran across another case this AM: Playhead Sync.

In Open mode, FCP automatically opens the Timeline clip at playhead position into the Viewer.

The auto select protocol for Open mode dictates that FCP will open the clip on the highest numbered video track with Auto Select enabled. If no video clips are present on auto selected tracks, FCP defaults to the highest numbered audio track with Auto Select enabled.

If this keeps up, Loren's gonna have to publish a laminated "Guide to Auto Select Behavior"....


-ellbee

Actually I would have thought pasting was an edit function.

I understand the problem with the viewer controlling the timeline patch panel. This raises another ugly question, why have this. I understand the partial necessity to edit multiple audio tracks, but why not simply have a minimum of one video and two audio tracks. So the source tabs are never completely lost. One of the worst part of the viewer/patch panel functionality is that it's not actually active. That if you execute an edit with the overlay directly the browser the status of the patch panel is ignored. In fact the edit executes to the last selected tracks, so if you don't remember what tracks you had selected before the viewer switched off a source function you can be in for a surprise.

The gang function in auto select is new behavior in that it chooses the highest track rather than the lowest track as all other auto select functions. Again another operation that should not be auto select controlled. I would have thought that track visibility should control open ganging. Auto select gives you some help if you want to hide a particularly track, but again, as in most cases for 95% of user functionality, the feature is more intrusive rather than helpful.

All the best,

Tom

[The least they could do is implement a toggle or mode switch for this sort of behavior. We want choice! I can't imagine its easier to code the application to add all these steps either.]

Excellent notion. I support AutoSelect and have since its inception because I'm looking for a simple ruleset to govern anything that happens to clips in the timeline, but for all its increasing function, I absolutely agree there should be a toggle to turn it off and let V 3.x behavior rule for copy/paste to destination tracks, and I am shocked to see that *selection* by hand doesn't override AS. That's a development no-no. As Ralph F. was fond of chanting, "FCP operates on selection."

So let the guys drag out the 3.x code module and add it as a checkbox pref! Tom will be in tears of joy, I won't need it. Except that if i select a clip by hand, dammit, it should be the priority, hands down. Selection is where we all meet.

Boy will we be ready when Brian and crew come back from vacation. Their job security is set for another year.

[Actually I would have thought pasting was an edit function. ]

Tom, it is, yet it's a Timeline-local function. Stop rolling your eyes, you know that's going to hurt after a while. Look, I'm not arguing with you about Canvas scaling, I think it should be Euclidian, or was that Ovid? <G>

Real edits come from outside the Timeline. Cloning clips from one Timeline to another is still Timeline-local. AS governs all actions (or should) in the Timeline window. I see practical logic in that so it's never upset me.

With time and use, I've come to rely on AS-- from the keyboard. I need the keyboard because my damn wrist began hurting all the way up to my shoulder. It's abated now, but it doesn't really reverse. Nothng quite like Callahan Tunnel Syndrome. I shall eventually need a wrist transpant. Balance your load between input methods. Add USB foot pedals the way BJ Sears at Showtime does it.

Command-Zero turns all the video AS off or on, Option-Zero toggles all the audio. So blading all video or all audio is simple-- easier than mousing to enable many tracks-- although yes, Option-click on any AS button reverses the AS selections like Photoshop layers. But numeric keypad 1-9 covers tracks 1 through 9 for V or A. I'm getting good at this with constant use.

[If this keeps up, Loren's gonna have to publish a laminated "Guide to Auto Select Behavior"....]

Excellent, Lisa, that would be a fab freebie for customers. Here it is:

AS now governs

- copy/paste location,
- clip mark/select,
- filter application,
- track enabled for "Select Closest Edit" (V) although it's buggy,
- match frame (highest of all selected tracks is matched),
- which track clip opens in Gang/Open mode, as Lisa indicates,
- selective blading via Add Edit,(critical for simulated multicam work) .

Laminate to taste.

I would *next* like to see it regulate

- track suppression for Go Next Edit action.
- which track audio waveforms are displayed,
- track suppression of info display in the Canvas overlay,
- and hopefully AS will make it possible to select closest edits on
*multiple* tracks for uniform trimming operations withn a region.

The last because this Command-click-to-add stuff gets old when you have ten tracks and want to do an outgoing ripple trim to all of them. This is easy in Avid, just enable the tracks in Trim mode and those cute lil' pink rollers (I of course would prefer blue) show up all the way down.

No, I don't think AS is going away, and I'm sure folks have plenty more ideas for it, and I believe the hooks are there for some cool enhancements. Because it's the same control used for new operations, there will be some user transparency to them.

But as I've complained in another post, "Apple-nesia" is disrupting user workflows and procedures that have been heavily imprinted. Must find a way to accomodate those who want to step off and edit for a change, rather than change for an edit!

Now I can sleep. Command-ZZZZ.

- Loren
Today's FCP4 keytip:
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"I support AutoSelect and have since its inception because I'm looking for a simple ruleset to govern anything that happens to clips in the timeline"

But that's exactly what has not happened. The toolset rules have become more and more complex and variable.

"With time and use, I've come to rely on AS-- from the keyboard"

This is a pain on a PowerBook. Also there is no way, that I can see, to remap the AS functions as the custom keyboard layout does not include the extended keypad.

"copy/paste location,"

not necessarily. Now pasting default's to the copied track, unless an AS function is changed. It also is not operative if an item is copied from the Viewer or the Browser.

"clip mark/select,"

This is actually unfortunate in my view and a long needed function. The ability to select a clip in the Timeline from the keyboard. If AS is used there should be a single keystroke to select the clip at the playhead. Again, why this requires a tool other than single track destination selection, escapes me. When you're selecting a clip, match framing, marking a clip, you are executing this to a single track. Why it's necessary to use a multitrack selection toolset simply makes what should be simple just more complex.

"match frame (highest of all selected tracks is matched)"

negative that. the lowest of all tracks is matched. Open/Gang follows the highest track rule.

"- selective blading via Add Edit,(critical for simulated multicam work) ."

This and filter application are the primary benefits of this toolset. Pretty much everything else could be better done with a different tool.

"- track suppression for Go Next Edit action.
- which track audio waveforms are displayed,
- track suppression of info display in the Canvas overlay,
- and hopefully AS will make it possible to select closest edits on
*multiple* tracks for uniform trimming operations withn a region."

These are all wonderful things Loren. My concern is to find a way to include these excellent functions without impinging the great majority of work done in the application.

Track suppression: very neat, it may take more time to set up than to skip with the arrow keys through an item, plus you then need to change it back so it doesn't disrupt other functions.

Track audio waveforms: again using AS for this means setting it up and then changing it back. A simple track select T, or multitrack select might work better. The advantage of doing it with selection to me is that you drop it and change tool and you have not reconfigured your editing workflow, which happens ever time you assign and reassign AS.

"The last because this Command-click-to-add stuff gets old when you have ten tracks and want to do an outgoing ripple trim to all of them."

Isn't this easier with the edit select tool, if you're going to be mousing? I wish this tool could drag select multiple edits even on the same track as well as multiple tracks. If you want to select a bunch, but not others that are stacked then AS with the edit select tool would be helpful.

I see AS heading more and more down the road towards modes, which I hope will be avoided. The simplicity and elegance of the single editing interface should be preserved in my view.

All the best,

Tom

[But that's exactly what has not happened. The toolset rules have become more and more complex and variable. ]

You're expecting a finished product? (Mad cackle)

[This is a pain on a PowerBook. Also there is no way, that I can see, to remap the AS functions as the custom keyboard layout does not include the extended keypad.]

That's true, Tom. I don't use a Powerbook so I'm weak on that perspective.

"copy/paste location,"

[Now pasting default's to the copied track, unless an AS function is changed. It also is not operative if an item is copied from the Viewer or the Browser.]

Yes, if no tracks are AS'd, copy defaults to original track. The minute you enable another track, the clip obediently pastes to it. I happen tyo like that control, although I understand your need for consistency. (Another mad cackle.)

"clip mark/select,"

This is actually unfortunate in my view and a long needed function. The ability to select a clip in the Timeline from the keyboard. If AS is used there should be a single keystroke to select the clip at the playhead. Again, why this requires a tool other than single track destination selection, escapes me. When you're selecting a clip, match framing, marking a clip, you are executing this to a single track. Why it's necessary to use a multitrack selection toolset simply makes what should be simple just more complex.

Well, you might just have a stack of video tracks and want to leave those alone at a given point in the sequence. This is especially true in synched multi-angle streams. Until merged clips support Multicam style rgouping and live switching, this is what we got, and sometimes we want to treat one angle over others and thus select the track it resides on.

You want to select( highlight) a clip in the timeline from the keyboard?

- Select track clip resides on with AS
- X
- Option-A

But you know what would be good? For those without multitracks, just a V1 track? No AS should be needed. I find when parked over a single layer with AS completely disabled, nothing happens on a press of X. That clip should be marked. I think that should be polished.

["match frame (highest of all selected tracks is matched)"

negative that. the lowest of all tracks is matched. Open/Gang follows the highest track rule.]

You got me! I was "feature-dislexic." And fatigued. Thank you.

[Isn't this easier with the edit select tool, if you're going to be mousing?]

I don't WANT to be mousing. Mouse=wristdeath.

[ I wish this tool could drag select multiple edits even on the same track as well as multiple tracks. If you want to select a bunch, but not others that are stacked then AS with the edit select tool would be helpful.]

Great one, Tom. The minute you're able to do that you should be able to apply multiple dissolves or any transitions simultaneously in a logical way rather than they weird mouse-only Overwrite with Trans.

- Loren
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"Yes, if no tracks are AS'd, copy defaults to original track"

Well actually it doesn't matter what tracks are selected or not selected, as long as you don't change an AS function, the paste will go to the track it came from.

"Well, you might just have a stack of video tracks and want to leave those alone at a given point in the sequence. This is especially true in synched multi-angle streams. Until merged clips support Multicam style rgouping and live switching, this is what we got, and sometimes we want to treat one angle over others and thus select the track it resides on."

Not sure what you mean by this Loren, but it does sound intriguing.

"- Select track clip resides on with AS
- X
- Option-A"

This can be five or more keystrokes too many. The way I see it we need something like X. Use the same function that selects match frame (which should be destination track selection in my view) and a single key should select the clip on that track under the playhead. A single letter. Nothing short of that is acceptable in my view. Why we're in 4.5 and this still hasn't happened is astonishing.

All the best,

Tom

[Well actually it doesn't matter what tracks are selected or not selected, as long as you don't change an AS function, the paste will go to the track it came from.]

You're absolutely right about that-- no AS is needed for Cut or Copy to the same track-- *and* the fact that I reversed two of my "of all tracks selected" behaviors-- for Match Frame and Gang-Open features.

PLUS I left out a couple more AS behaviors (or misbehaviors as your perspective dictates) --

AS now governs which track is active for Previous/Next Keyframe [Option/Shift-K] action. If all tracks are enabled, cursor goes to every keyframe on all AS-enabled tracks. This makes sense, it follows Add-Edit behavior.

AS completely disabled will prevent you from creating a freeze frame. At least one of the clip tracks must be enabled for Shift-N to work. YUCH. om won't like that. I don't either. That's a little too AS-fascist for me. Freeze frame should be dictated by the Playhead park point, period. If we don't want to include a layer in the freeze, we'll disable its visibility. I'm sending thatoneoff to Apple.

So what's the grocery list to date?

Auto Select regulates:

- Paste clip (Command-V) track location, if changed after Cut or Copy
- Clip Mark (X) track, (all tracks if all are AS enabled)
- Clip Select (Option-A) track, (all tracks if all are AS enabled)
- Add Edit (Control-V) , (all tracks if all are AS-enabled)
- Select Closest Edit (V) ( *lowest* of all AS enabled tracks nearest Playhead)
- Filter application, (to all tracks if all are AS enabled)
- Match Frame (F) track (lowest of all enabled or if all are AS-disabled),
- Gang-Open Clip track, (*highest* of all AS enabled or if all are AS-disabled)
- Next/Previous Keyframe track (all tracks if all are AS enabled)
- Freeze Frame (one of the clip tracks at Playhead must be AS enabled)

I bet there's more. This comes easy to me. But then, I grew up on Lionel trains... ;-)

Lisa's rght, too-- time to laminate this and hand it out the way deaf people hand out the sign language spell cards. (Which is how I learned the deaf alphabet!)

Subject to change. ;-(

- Loren
Today's FCP4 keytip:
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AutoSelect is dictatorial. It removes overt control and hides any immediately observable track assignment from the user. Using AutoSelect with confidence instead of ranting frustration requires the user to memorize a long list of far-from-logical if-then and or-else conditions; circular and exclusionary rules that even you god-like power users cannot agree upon.

For the everyday professional editor, AutoSelect is an intrusive and insulting collection of assumptions that remove the ability to know we are in control of our software. When I hit Edit, I expect the cut to take place on the tracks I have assigned. But AutoSelect runs its progression of presumptuousness, insisting on placing my edit where it chooses, and then calls me an idiot for not being able to follow along.

AutoSelect bites. AutoSelect bites not because I'm an idiot or a Luddite. AutoSelect bites because it's not immediately helpful. A tool that gets in the way is not a tool. That definition is applied to the word Obstruction.

If the FCP code monkeys won't admit it was a dumb idea and take it out or provide a user option, at least they could consider a way to provide the user with some intuitive indication of where things are going to end up.

You remember how Boris worked when it was first introduced (this was before Media 100 admitted keyframes were actually a good idea)? There was a little blue light widget that indicated an effect parameter had been addressed. So, you FCP guys and gals, give me a little blue light widget in the Viewer, where I am working -- not in the Timeline, which is NOT where I'm working -- that indicates where the edit is going to show up. Better yet, give me a grid of little blue light widgets in the Viewer which allow me target where my edit will occur. I need them in the Viewer because that's where my trimming and effects design are taking place. I don't need track assignments in the timeline at all because that requires leaving my work area and making a huge trip across the screen to the track patch panel.

Just my opinion, of course, but I'm right and everyone else is wrong. It's good to be king.

Umm, I gotta get back to work.

bogiesan